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Answers To Curing Anhedonia/numbness/apathy, No. 1


itstrevor

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Handsup, I understand the despair that you are going through as I am going through the same exact thing, but you are unable to determine if your anhedonia is permanent unless you have tried all available options. You haven't even tried an MAOI. The best evidence we have is that there is at least a 50% chance of Parnate working. There is still a significant chance that even if Parnate does not work, it will at least be partially effective. Theoretically, the increase in dopamine should correlate to an increase in motivation and salience. We have shown the possibility of this through many of our responses to stimulants. I have had to continually remind you of this.

The power of the despair that many of us are experiencing illustrates just how important the reward pathways are in the brain. One explanation I've read for dopamine's role in reward goes something like this: dopamine tells the brain when a reward is salient, noticeable, important, and better than expected. Dr. David Redish at the University of Minnesota explains dopamine's role like this:

let's say you are at a gumball machine and you want to buy a gumball. So you put in a quarter, and due to some freak of gumball machine physics, you end up getting two gumballs. This is when the midbrain releases dopamine. Dopamine tells the brain when a reward is especially good and to pay attention for that reward in the future.

So let's say you put another quarter into the gumball machine, and this time you get one gumball. This time the brain does not produce any excess dopamine. It isn't that the gumball isn't rewarding, it's just that it wasn't better than expected.

Now let's say you try to push your luck and put a third quarter into the machine. This time you get no gumballs. This time the neurons in the midbrain release less dopamine because this reward was worse than expected.

Dopamine is the first in a series of neurochemical message cascades that produce pleasure. Without it, mice become catatonic, apathetic, antisocial, and lose preference for reward.

Like many of us, without proper dopaminergic signaling, everything feels worse than expected, and motivation is lost.

I'm inching closer and closer to being able to email my doctor. It is the 11th today and I will be emailing him on the 14th.

Ah my bad, Sorry Trevor, it seems you were already implicating on it.

"This is when the midbrain releases dopamine. Dopamine tells the brain when a reward is especially good and to pay attention for that reward in the future."

I'll keep my post anyway.

Interesting. But I believe there might be something to take into consideration. The difference between consummary and anticipatoring hedonism. What happens after getting no gumballs is not that the "no" gumball itself didn't give enough reward but the brain adjust to that the NEXT gumball(s) probably would be zero as well. However if one is a real positvist person one might think that the gumball after is = -1 and that could as well mean the rest of gumballs (if any). Ackording to my mirtazapinexperience even the "reward" for listening to music even got worse than on high dose SSRI but I've noticed some cravings for sugar. And It wouldn't be hard for me to become some sort of sugarjunkie. That part seems more like something consummatory. When wer'e talking about anticipation hedonistic capacity I am quite sure it's about having Desire, wanting, and wishing for something or expecting, maybe having hope might be something to do with it as well. The music in itself is very abstract. What is music really? I know it can trigger adrenaline. It might cause shivers in the spine. Or maybe "the shiver in the spine" mood causes adrenaline which makes one to listen to music. But I must think as much about music that the former seems more likely.

The problems with loss of dopamine which I connect to anticipatory is of course that it's the capacitity more subtler form of enjoyment which is mainly lacking. It's of course not impossible to be having consummatory anhedonia as well. And if one get¨s less enjoyment of things one would probably have less urge to keep on doing them.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17490858

Edited by General_Failure
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Thing is Trevor, I will never be the same, even if I find some sort of "relief". I miss the old me, because I use to be passionate about stuff that I liked, I felt alive... life was beautiful, but now, this isn't even living. If you've been suffering with anhedonia for 5+ years, it's definitely going to ruin you mentally, there is no denying that. Everything about me has been completely, and utterly destroyed... I honestly don't even know who I am anymore. So, what's the purpose of continuing this existence if I have been completely destroyed? Why is simply existing so painful? I know you are also going through the same thing (and I'm sorry to hear that you, and many other people are experiencing the living death that is, anhedonia) but god forbid you have to experience this for 5+ years... it will RUIN your sanity.

Sometimes I ask myself, how can something like anhedonia even exist? This is far worst then physical torture... the pain cannot be explained in words, it's simply impossible. Even though I've been experiencing this for the past 5 years, I'm in complete disbelief that something like this can even exist.

I know your anhedonia isn't drug induced - so you probably have a much better chance of recovering than I do. But honestly, I don't think I can even tolerate this anymore. I have to try multiple drugs just to fix a problem that another drug caused, who knows if it may even get worst (health deteriorates) or something else.

Logically, I do not even see the point of continuing this existence, I honestly don't. Why exist if you aren't even alive?

--

For me, I went through a traumatic childhood (I don't want to share my story) and if things couldn't have been so damn bad... it went from bad... to something... I don't know how to explain it. If it wasn't for anhedonia, I would still WANT to live... but this has completely destroyed me... and no drug will ever bring back the "old" me.

I feel as if I'm on life support... I'm technically "still alive" but I am dead. I'm honestly done with this existence... like I said, I don't want to bring the morale down, and I truly hope you guys find a cure, but I'm not sure I can wait anymore.. and "hope" that there's some sort of cure out there.

I've lost all interest in experiencing "existing" in this hell... this type of torture is simply not acceptable, and I don't deserve this (and other people who suffer from this horrific... condition?)

Sometimes I ask myself if this is actually reality, or is it all a dream?

Edited by handsup
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Thing is Trevor, I will never be the same, even if I find some sort of "relief". I miss the old me, because I use to be passionate about stuff that I liked, I felt alive... life was beautiful, but now, this isn't even living. If you've been suffering with anhedonia for 5+ years, it's definitely going to ruin you mentally, there is no denying that. Everything about me has been completely, and utterly destroyed... I honestly don't even know who I am anymore. So, what's the purpose of continuing this existence if I have been completely destroyed? Why is simply existing so painful? I know you are also going through the same thing (and I'm sorry to hear that you, and many other people are experiencing the living death that is, anhedonia) but god forbid you have to experience this for 5+ years... it will RUIN your sanity.

Sometimes I ask myself, how can something like anhedonia even exist? This is far worst then physical torture... the pain cannot be explained in words, it's simply impossible. Even though I've been experiencing this for the past 5 years, I'm in complete disbelief that something like this can even exist.

I know your anhedonia isn't drug induced - so you probably have a much better chance of recovering than I do. But honestly, I don't think I can even tolerate this anymore. I have to try multiple drugs just to fix a problem that another drug caused, who knows if it may even get worst (health deteriorates) or something else.

Logically, I do not even see the point of continuing this existence, I honestly don't. Why exist if you aren't even alive?

--

For me, I went through a traumatic childhood (I don't want to share my story) and if things couldn't have been so damn bad... it went from bad... to something... I don't know how to explain it. If it wasn't for anhedonia, I would still WANT to live... but this has completely destroyed me... and no drug will ever bring back the "old" me.

I feel as if I'm on life support... I'm technically "still alive" but I am dead. I'm honestly done with this existence... like I said, I don't want to bring the morale down, and I truly hope you guys find a cure, but I'm not sure I can wait anymore.. and "hope" that there's some sort of cure out there.

I've lost all interest in experiencing "existing" in this hell... this type of torture is simply not acceptable, and I don't deserve this (and other people who suffer from this horrific... condition?)

Sometimes I ask myself if this is actually reality, or is it all a dream?

I might as well worsened my "prognosis" with SSRI. I must have been on them at least for 7 years. There's been some interruption in the "treatment". But the Tardive issue might a well play a role in the case of mine as well. Some Schizophrenia versions like "Simplex" does also not have any good prognosis when it comes to treating those "negative symptoms". I was given that diagnosis at 17. They probably ****ed up. Because I was clinical depressed 4 or 5 years before that time and when entering the nutward I'd just been in a fight with my father. But well. In case of schizophrenia it was usually Clozapine(leponex) that might better those so called negative symptoms. In these days I still see Amisulpride (low doses) and Abilify as "might work". I also got Schizoid Personality D at some time. and as I wrote earlier Wellbutrin did make things for the better. At least social anhedonia and Focus. I repeat, not as much as Ritalin did but I wasn't like socializing but playing the piano. At least One decent week since the age of 14.

I do identify with what you say, not knowing who one is. But actually noone does. They think that they're their job or their things or in worse case someone else they know or know of. Nervous breakdown or perhaps Identity loss might be something which I might relate to. I believe that in psychological term Methylphenidate strenghtens the sense of "I". I don't know if it's importance in anticipatory hedonic capacity or not. For these sort of thing I expect Acceptante Commitment Therapy might work. But basically this is about eastern philosophy Zen Budhism and or chinese Taoism.

I recall those early years before I went sick quite a lot of years, I got into a 24/7 Derealization state at 14. So at the first time I was trying to focus on Rocks in the wood to to trying to feel like I or the world was real. (didn't work) And those moments of what has been was terrible to think about. It just never will be the same. One has to accept that I believe. As stated Mirtazapine stripped away the last bit of anticipatory hedonic capacity and I feel like some sort of robot. It's a shame when even the capacity for enjoying music somewhat goes to hell. I'll likely change or augment with other drugs, and at the meantime I just try to forget as much as possible.

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Hey everyone.

I've made a decision, and the decision is to not take anymore drugs, and let my brain heal (however long it may take). I don't think taking more drugs is the answer here... the reason why I'm here in the first place is because of taking drugs in the first place (which I deeply regret, but I never knew something like this was possible). There's a person who went through a horrific experience (like I am currently) and he made a full recovery in 14 years, and he said emotions were the last thing to come back and he never thought it would have happened.

I know it's going to take a very, very long time, but to me, I believe waiting that long is worth it. I am tempted to try a stimulant (Ritalin/Adderall) but even if it does work somewhat, it'll only work in the short term, and may cause even more problems in the long run. Unfortunately, my young and best years will be taken away from me, but I hope one day I can recover and be able to enjoy life. This is a living nightmare, no doubt, If I do recover (which I truly hope I do), in a way, it is kinda scary that I won't feel human emotions until I'm around 34 years old... I can't imagine myself in my 30's...good lord, that's a scary thought... but I will not give up.

Best of luck to everyone. I'll check this thread out from time to time, and I hope EVERYONE who is suffering from this living nightmare will recover, because we deserve to have a normal life.

Edited by Forum Admin
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@ItsTrevor

This is a truly well written and researched topic, however there is one thing that I do not understand.

You suffer from anhedonia, yet you have the motivation to research and construct such a complex topic?

It appears that depression has had the unfortunate effect of anhedonia on you, but it hasn't cognitively impaired you.

I can't focus, I can't read, I can't remember, I can't feel, I feel like an empty, useless shell.

Did you ever experience being cognitively impaired?

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hi itstrevor

i was on clomipramine and lamotrigine for 2 month and nothing happend

3 question:

1-my psychiatrist in last time that i visited him said that my symptoms are about the obsessions and he said that when i can not express my emotions this is because of obsession and he prescribed me CHLORDIAZEPOXIDE again and lamogine with half dose. i searched on internet and find a sentence in wiki that says: " A relatively vague obsession could involve a general sense of disarray or tension accompanied by a belief that life cannot proceed as normal while the imbalance remains". and the next interesting sentence says:"It has been proposed that sufferers are generally of above-average intelligence, as the nature of the disorder necessitates complicated thinking patterns.[4] OCD is associated with higher IQ.

now what is your opinion? you know that the anxiety and its related disorders are very very insidious.is this anhedonia or no emotion reactivity caused by obsessions?

2-if we have 100 healthy people and giving them a moderate dose of prozac for Specific time,how much is the percent of probability of mood blunting or apathy?

3-someone in this forum http://www.longecity.org/forum/topic/52540-stablon-tianeptine-experience-review/page__st__30

used tianeptine(stablon)and find it useful .one bileave is that this only ssre drug is useful for mood blunting effect of ssri's.what do you think?

Edited by poplord
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@ItsTrevor

This is a truly well written and researched topic, however there is one thing that I do not understand.

You suffer from anhedonia, yet you have the motivation to research and construct such a complex topic?

It appears that depression has had the unfortunate effect of anhedonia on you, but it hasn't cognitively impaired you.

I can't focus, I can't read, I can't remember, I can't feel, I feel like an empty, useless shell.

Did you ever experience being cognitively impaired?

I think that during the initial stages of my depression I felt cognitively impaired.

Recently I am having trouble even figuring out what I am feeling. Like sometimes I wonder to myself "maybe it's all in my head" and that "I really am normal." I don't even know. Like I can't tell if I'm feeling good or horrible. My best guess is that the signals are so attenuated that my brain can't figure it out. Like sometimes I don't feel awful or anything, just kind of "whatever." I don't know if that means I'm feeling good or not, since I have forgotten the feeling. I'm just baffled at this whole thing, like I don't even have the ability to gauge myself anymore.

But I think if someone suggested that it might all be in my head I would be really upset at them, since that suggests that I have the power to fix it, and I'm already struggling. I don't know, I guess the intensity of everything just dropped to near zero or something. I never feel compelled to cry or feel head over heels about someone or get emotional from a song. I long for the emotional intensity but nothing seems to give it to me. I sometimes wonder if my brain has forgotten how to feel good or if the parts of my brain that illicit those feelings just atrophied or something.

Like I know it sounds really strange, but I honestly can't tell if I don't want to exist anymore or if I'm content. It's like the feelings are indistinguishable or something, or maybe I've forgotten what "content" really feels like.

and to answer Poplord's questions:

1.) Some people I've talked to have said that I am "obsessive" too, but to me, I don't feel that that is a useful comment. It suggests that if I "wasn't obsessive" my issue would be gone, and I don't find that to be the case. Regardless if I am researching or not I still have the anhedonia.

2.) I don't know

3.) I have heard it might be useful but I don't know much about its efficacy

Honestly I always come to the conclusion that it isn't all in my head though... Because a normal person shouldn't have to sit and ponder whether or not they care about things or wonder if they are feeling good. In a normal person things would be self evident. Feelings shouldn't be indistinguishable.

Edited by itstrevor
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It took me some time over the past two days to read this thread, but I finally read the whole thing. I am impressed with your dedication and hard work on this topic EVERYONE here, and I feel compelled to give special recognition to itstrevor.

The reason I am looking at this topic is because I, too, feel anhedonic. I can't put my finger on the exact amount of time that I have felt this way, but I believe it's been about 4 years. I believe I have had about 3 major depressive episodes in my life (of mild to moderate severity). I wouldn't currently say I think I am depressed. The word I actually use to describe myself is "lame."

I also have had several periods of extreme anxiety in my life. Since the last of these episodes has resolved (which included both depression and extreme anxiety) I have felt completely unexcited about anything. Nothing that used to make me happy does so anymore. My typical day includes getting up (late) and sitting on a couch, watching TV shows that I have seen a million times, using the computer, and eating (not nearly as much as I should). It seems like I manage to do one thing a week that I can find mildly enjoyable - but I never feel truly happy. I don't feel like things are truly funny, I never actually want to have sex anymore, I never actually truly WANT to do anything (my answer to people asking me what I want to do is usually "I don't care" or "Whatever you want to do" or "I don't know). I also actually rarely feel sad. Nothing shocks me anymore, either. My anxiety is also mostly gone. Like nothing's left!

Recently I decided to start investigating why I might be feeling this way. I noticed that I thought the onset of anhedonia coincided with starting birth control, so I decided to stop taking it. The Nurse Practitioner prescribing me the birth control said it is not uncommon for birth control to suppress sex drive as well as emotions in some people. I have been off for 8 months. I have noticed little change except for during the past 2 months (finally?), but it isn't really all that great. About 1 week before my period starts, I feel REAL EMOTIONS for ONE DAY, and not as much emotion as I used to feel prior to all of this starting. Then after that ONE DAY I feel very sad or complete/extreme anhedonia (more than my usual) until the period is completely over. Then back to my "normal" anhedonia til the next time.

I decided to get more things looked into. I had the following labs done:

CBC, Vitamin D, TSH, T4, B12, Folate, GFR, Basic metabolic panel, pregnancy test, dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate, free testosterone, LH, FSH, estradiol, prolactin, and insulin. (Most of it was done in one sitting. That was a fun blood draw. Had to fill 7 tubes!)

All came back NORMAL. I have also recently been tested for STDs (Negative).

I have not tried any antidepressants or anything. I used to take clonazepam (Klonopin) - a benzo- about 2 years ago during a period of very bad anxiety, but only needed it about 3x a week. Haven't taken it in a long time, now.

I am feeling like I need to start considering a neurotransmitter imbalance OR possibly some kind of adrenal fatigue related to my high anxiety in the past. As far as I am concerned, I ruled out any of the most common physical causes. Just want to introduce myself because I, too, will be able to update you all if I discover anything.

Edited by AquaViolet
TOS
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Well everyone, here comes another rant. In all honesty, for me, I just don't even see the point continuing this existence anymore... existing is so painful... everything is so damn boring, I can't feel any emotions, so why do I go on? What is the purpose of my life if my humanity has been taken away from me. No matter what I do, nothing pleases me at all... and the worst part is, I can't even get mad over it, because I have no emotion... so honestly, I don't know what to do anymore. You see, I want to wait and let my damn brain heal itself (if it ever will)... I could be waiting years, and years, and years all for nothing. I've already waited 5 years, and nothing happened. I don't want to take more drugs to screw me up even more.

Honestly, I'm not even being negative or anything, I'm just saying as it is...and I think in all honestly, that I had enough of doing this everyday ----> (Eat, watch movies, sleep) There's no point of even going outside or leaving the house, I don't see a reason for doing so. I've been destroyed as a human being, and I never thought something like this is possible.

If anyone can give me a good reason why I should continue suffering, then please go ahead, because I'm not sure how long I can take this. If there's one thing in life I could do, it would be to go back in time and wished I never took Prozac... but hey, unfortunately life is a B, and I guess this was the way things were meant to happen. I mean, the stuff that happened in my life already ruined me, but then taking Prozac just nailed it in the coffin.

My sympathies to other fellow human beings... what's happening to us cannot be explained in words, yet, no understands. It's a cruel world.

Edited by handsup
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Yeah, there's no ****ing way I can even continue this. I'm sorry guys, but I really and truly don't even see the point of even continuing this existence anymore. When you have no desires/motivation/interests to do anything in life, and when nothing makes you happy/sad/mad, whatever, I mean... I don't see the point. God forbid someone I know I care about (but I don't feel anything for them) dies... I wouldn't feel a thing. I'm no longer a human being, and I don't even see a logical reason why I should even bother. I'm not sure if this is "appropriate", but the most attractive women in the world would not even interest me, at all. Another weird example... but you get the point: a person with a gun could try to **** me... and I would feel invincible, as if I cannot be killed... but logically, I know that's not true. I simply do not feel fear... no fear at all.

My soul, my identity, EVERYTHING about me has been completely and utterly destroyed, all thanks to pills I took when I was 15 years old.... I miss the magic about life, but now, it's gone and I don't think something like that will ever return.

I miss life... I want to be a part of it, but for some reason, it simply wasn't meant to be. Why is this type of suffering even possible... is simply beyond me. Positivity/Hope is simply a delusion in this case (for me), because I will never be a normal human being again. Everything about me, and everything that made me human, is COMPLETELY gone, forever and ever. I have been destroyed, and I must accept that this is permanent. No one understands how I feel... my family wants to help, but I don't think they understand what's been done to me.

I'm sorry for ranting, but I honestly can't even help it. HOW IS THIS POSSIBLE? WHY DO PEOPLE SUFFER FROM THIS? IT IS SIMPLY INHUMANE. Whatever, The magic and the beauty of life is forever lost, and gone.

Edited by handsup
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Handsup it is probably better to focus more on treating the condition and researching possible ways to cure it than on how terrible it is. I have had to continually remind you that the best evidence we have suggests that we should at least be partially helped by Parnate. We are all going through this, so it is probably best to avoid negativity.

I have been struggling too. Personally, my mood/motivation/pleasure has declined to such an extent that I have been considering hospitalization. I need to make it through this coming week until my doctor's appointment, and I have been really struggling. I emailed my doctor this morning so hopefully I will get a reply from him tomorrow. This is what I ended up sending him:

"Hello Doctor ______,
I am here to remind you that I have been on the acetyl-l-carnitine for more than 4 weeks (more like 5 or 6). Also, I have had to postpone our appointment until the 23rd due to schedule conflicts (school). I've been really struggling, but I have tried to wait until you have returned from your vacation of 2 weeks (I assume that you are back now).
You had said in a previous email: "I really want you to try the other medication to give it a shot but we don't have to wait a full 6 weeks as that is a long time. Maybe 4 weeks... If you don't feel anything in that time, then I promise we'll aggresively get you off the Vivactil and start an MAOI."
My mood has been SEVERELY low/flat and it is becoming difficult to cope with it. My emotions seem indistinguishable from one another and I feel indifferent about virtually everything. Feelings of despair due to this are great.
I have been trying to look out for any sort of change as a result of my more recent med changes (the acetyl-l-carnitine, coming off of the abilify, lowering the dose of the vivactil to 15mg, etc.) but I have been unable to determine if there has been a change. As baffling as this is, it does not appear that there has been any sort of change in my mood; if there has, it seems that it is too subtle to notice. I do not know what to make of this, but I am still having difficulty experiencing pleasure/emotion of any kind. It appears that my mood/emotional response is so flat that I often have difficulty determining exactly how I am feeling, since the signals feel so attenuated. At times I am able to keep myself from *rock bottom* with much effort, but I feel incapable of actually feeling *good*. I find it difficult to even sit through and enjoy a movie. Low/No libido is still evident.
What would you like me to do?"

My prediction is that I will be coming off of the vivactil and acetyl-l-carnitine starting tomorrow or the day after. Lets hope that the med switch doesn't trigger a worsening of my mood. For some reason I think it has been worse this week.

Edited by itstrevor
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Hi handsup,

I would have to agree with you on several counts as to the inhumanity of this state of being. However I would disagree with your opinion that your state is permanent. I found that my brain changed (matured) from the age of 21 to 23 where it began to level out. This was marked by an increase in distress tolerance and greater stability. So in that sense I would say there is some hope for you.

Hang in there,

Clip

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An update on my Zoloft experience:

Moved to 100mg after 5 weeks on 50mg. Insomnia for three nights, stabilising now. Mood flat, I feel indifferent to everything and wasn't even distressed when I began getting concerned messages from friends who I had missed many calls from.

I will stick it out until 4 or 5 weeks at this dose but doubt that there will be much improvement. It seems the SSRI blunting hypothesis is being forefilled, at least in my case.

Clip

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@ Trevor - I know we're all suffering, and it's terrible, but for me personally, it's just ruining me. You see, I ask myself: what is the point of having a girlfriend? What is the point of having a job? What is the point of doing anything? To me, everything is meaningless and I just don't see a purpose in anything anymore. Life is pointless... I use to be passionate about Soccer and I would love to watch games (especially UEFA CL matches + euro/world cup) but why would I even want to watch soccer games anymore? I don't enjoy watching it... and the love of the sport is gone.

I just honestly don't see how recovery is even possible in this case, because to me, everything is meaningless.

Hi handsup,

I would have to agree with you on several counts as to the inhumanity of this state of being. However I would disagree with your opinion that your state is permanent. I found that my brain changed (matured) from the age of 21 to 23 where it began to level out. This was marked by an increase in distress tolerance and greater stability. So in that sense I would say there is some hope for you.

Hang in there,

Clip

What do you mean by level out exactly? I didn't understand that part.

---

Logically, in this state, I don't see the purpose of anything anymore... what's the purpose of existing in this state? I'm sorry if I might be negative, but I don't see this as negativity, but only the truth.

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@ Trevor - I know we're all suffering, and it's terrible, but for me personally, it's just ruining me. You see, I ask myself: what is the point of having a girlfriend? What is the point of having a job? What is the point of doing anything? To me, everything is meaningless and I just don't see a purpose in anything anymore. Life is pointless... I use to be passionate about Soccer and I would love to watch games (especially UEFA CL matches + euro/world cup) but why would I even want to watch soccer games anymore? I don't enjoy watching it... and the love of the sport is gone.

I just honestly don't see how recovery is even possible in this case, because to me, everything is meaningless.

Hi handsup,

I would have to agree with you on several counts as to the inhumanity of this state of being. However I would disagree with your opinion that your state is permanent. I found that my brain changed (matured) from the age of 21 to 23 where it began to level out. This was marked by an increase in distress tolerance and greater stability. So in that sense I would say there is some hope for you.

Hang in there,

Clip

What do you mean by level out exactly? I didn't understand that part.

---

Logically, in this state, I don't see the purpose of anything anymore... what's the purpose of existing in this state? I'm sorry if I might be negative, but I don't see this as negativity, but only the truth.

Come on!!! GET OUT OF YOR SELFPITY BEHAVIOUR!!!

It does harm you in addition to your existing anhedonia. You have many options to try and get rid of it even still more then many of us because you have not tried many things!

Iam at the moment at a very low dose on cymbalta and a low dose of ritalin and doing well the last days!!

Socializing and some pleasure to do things.

10mg - 0 - 10mg cymbalta

10mg - 5mg - 0mg Medikinet

If i increase cymbalta things get be very worse. Because the smallest dose of cymbalta is 30mg i have to open the capsule. But without cymbalta things also get very worse ;)

Dont know how long this sence of well being lasts but nobody does know this so i will be on that a bit. Living from day to day is the best approach for sufferers of depression or / and anhedonia.

Edited by Naibaf
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@ Trevor - I know we're all suffering, and it's terrible, but for me personally, it's just ruining me. You see, I ask myself: what is the point of having a girlfriend? What is the point of having a job? What is the point of doing anything? To me, everything is meaningless and I just don't see a purpose in anything anymore. Life is pointless... I use to be passionate about Soccer and I would love to watch games (especially UEFA CL matches + euro/world cup) but why would I even want to watch soccer games anymore? I don't enjoy watching it... and the love of the sport is gone.

I just honestly don't see how recovery is even possible in this case, because to me, everything is meaningless.

Hi handsup,

I would have to agree with you on several counts as to the inhumanity of this state of being. However I would disagree with your opinion that your state is permanent. I found that my brain changed (matured) from the age of 21 to 23 where it began to level out. This was marked by an increase in distress tolerance and greater stability. So in that sense I would say there is some hope for you.

Hang in there,

Clip

What do you mean by level out exactly? I didn't understand that part.

---

Logically, in this state, I don't see the purpose of anything anymore... what's the purpose of existing in this state? I'm sorry if I might be negative, but I don't see this as negativity, but only the truth.

Come on!!! GET OUT OF YOR SELFPITY BEHAVIOUR!!!

It does harm you in addition to your existing anhedonia. You have many options to try and get rid of it even still more then many of us because you have not tried many things!

Iam at the moment at a very low dose on cymbalta and a low dose of ritalin and doing well the last days!!

Socializing and some pleasure to do things.

10mg - 0 - 10mg cymbalta

10mg - 5mg - 0mg Medikinet

If i increase cymbalta things get be very worse. Because the smallest dose of cymbalta is 30mg i have to open the capsule. But without cymbalta things also get very worse ;)

Dont know how long this sence of well being lasts but nobody does know this so i will be on that a bit. Living from day to day is the best approach for sufferers of depression or / and anhedonia.

Even though I can't feel emotions, I think I'm becoming severely depressed because of this (I don't how it's possible, but it is... maybe a very low mood? I don't know) but this is honestly ******* me. I honestly don't know how you guys stay mentally strong when you have been destroyed as a human being. Now... if I ever get better, I have to rely on pills for the rest of my life. (and that's if i get extremely lucky to find the right meds in the first place)

I'm just thinking about the past memories of my life, and I miss the good times so much... the excitement... the thrill... it's all gone. Whenever I went to Europe for a vacation, I was so happy and excited, I was fascinated because Europe was so beautiful... very different from north America... now it's gone. All gone.

---

If anyone can give me a logical reason why I should go on, and then let me know... because I don't. I don't even see the faintest glimmer of hope... hope is a delusion in this state. I'm just trying to understand how anyone has strength when it comes to this, because strength simply doesn't exist in this state.

---

All I ask for in life is to feel human emotions + feelings... but maybe I'm expecting too much. I mean, how is strength even possible when you have been completely destroyed and obliterated? Please let me know. I'm looking for answers.

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I don't even think I care about getting better, because I've been destroyed and don't even have the ability to care about things anymore. I have to force myself to care... but it's so hard when you've been destroyed. I don't understand why something like anhedonia even exists.

i'm an ***** for taking those pills... let's be realistic, how many people recover from anhedonia? not many.

--

Can anyone tell what is the point in life if you can't feel anything, and can't enjoy anything? Because I don't think there is an answer....

Edited by handsup
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I don't even think I care about getting better, because I've been destroyed and don't even have the ability to care about things anymore. I have to force myself to care... but it's so hard when you've been destroyed. I don't understand why something like anhedonia even exists.

i'm an ***** for taking those pills... let's be realistic, how many people recover from anhedonia? not many.

--

Can anyone tell what is the point in life if you can't feel anything, and can't enjoy anything? Because I don't think there is an answer....

If you think there is nothing left, and recovery is beyond reach, then why not try some new medications?

It may also give you some sense of hope in trying something to combat the anhedonia instead of nothing at all.

Edited by Rhop
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@ Trevor - I know we're all suffering, and it's terrible, but for me personally, it's just ruining me. You see, I ask myself: what is the point of having a girlfriend? What is the point of having a job? What is the point of doing anything? To me, everything is meaningless and I just don't see a purpose in anything anymore. Life is pointless... I use to be passionate about Soccer and I would love to watch games (especially UEFA CL matches + euro/world cup) but why would I even want to watch soccer games anymore? I don't enjoy watching it... and the love of the sport is gone.

I just honestly don't see how recovery is even possible in this case, because to me, everything is meaningless.

Hi handsup,

I would have to agree with you on several counts as to the inhumanity of this state of being. However I would disagree with your opinion that your state is permanent. I found that my brain changed (matured) from the age of 21 to 23 where it began to level out. This was marked by an increase in distress tolerance and greater stability. So in that sense I would say there is some hope for you.

Hang in there,

Clip

What do you mean by level out exactly? I didn't understand that part.

---

Logically, in this state, I don't see the purpose of anything anymore... what's the purpose of existing in this state? I'm sorry if I might be negative, but I don't see this as negativity, but only the truth.

Come on!!! GET OUT OF YOR SELFPITY BEHAVIOUR!!!

It does harm you in addition to your existing anhedonia. You have many options to try and get rid of it even still more then many of us because you have not tried many things!

Iam at the moment at a very low dose on cymbalta and a low dose of ritalin and doing well the last days!!

Socializing and some pleasure to do things.

10mg - 0 - 10mg cymbalta

10mg - 5mg - 0mg Medikinet

If i increase cymbalta things get be very worse. Because the smallest dose of cymbalta is 30mg i have to open the capsule. But without cymbalta things also get very worse ;)

Dont know how long this sence of well being lasts but nobody does know this so i will be on that a bit. Living from day to day is the best approach for sufferers of depression or / and anhedonia.

Even though I can't feel emotions, I think I'm becoming severely depressed because of this (I don't how it's possible, but it is... maybe a very low mood? I don't know) but this is honestly ******* me. I honestly don't know how you guys stay mentally strong when you have been destroyed as a human being. Now... if I ever get better, I have to rely on pills for the rest of my life. (and that's if i get extremely lucky to find the right meds in the first place)

I'm just thinking about the past memories of my life, and I miss the good times so much... the excitement... the thrill... it's all gone. Whenever I went to Europe for a vacation, I was so happy and excited, I was fascinated because Europe was so beautiful... very different from north America... now it's gone. All gone.

---

If anyone can give me a logical reason why I should go on, and then let me know... because I don't. I don't even see the faintest glimmer of hope... hope is a delusion in this state. I'm just trying to understand how anyone has strength when it comes to this, because strength simply doesn't exist in this state.

---

All I ask for in life is to feel human emotions + feelings... but maybe I'm expecting too much. I mean, how is strength even possible when you have been completely destroyed and obliterated? Please let me know. I'm looking for answers.

To exist is strength. Do not struggle to exist. Avoid ruminating on the past. But do not try to hard avoiding ruminating on it. It seems like you are ruminating and maybe obsessing much. I understand why, and maybe I probably to would if not for this cocktail with some lifestylechanges. It's hard to be reminded of the impact of hedonism in this society. If one lacks it it seems one can not "suceed". One never has any motivation. And if one thinks about most thing it will come down to there's no meaning. And at occasion life seems more taking than giving. Let being be the reason for existing. Try put some focus on your breathing. Try using your stomach while doing so if not already. If that's a problem I suppose it's related to anxiety.

Workout seem to help somewhat here. At least the body respond to opioids (Endorphins).

If you can get hold of Inositol (Vitamin b8) in quite large doses that might help. Gingko Biloba might have helped somewhat but today I drank some cocoa (some Phenylethylamine (in worst case some caffeine to) )

I also took a Ginseng Panax tab. Maybe it was 200 mg (unsure).

I reflect quite a much about this thread. It was a good call to put this thing into focus. As I have stated it seems clear that you're frustrated about this. And at this time I think you even start to doubt what your "rants" is good for (no offence intented, I can just relate to it). I use(d) to mail my psychenurse very much like you trying to express yourself. My doc told me he is sceptical about my prognosis. It seems he's also having his doubt about Parnate (when it comes to Anhedonia I suppose). Potential diminishing benefits. Some people feel weak when taking it. One complained about not being able to workout while taking it and therefore went to Nardil. People taking nardil sometimes feel they're getting to "Zonked ala SSRI". There's a good reason to hasten slowly. Me myself is on Remeron as stated and I feel like a fuxking robot, whatever "feeling" that is. One thing I've noticed is that I am not ruminating over this as much as before. In clinical terms it's maybe the anti-OCD effect. I don't do much else than workout, sometimes meet a friend. Sometimes I think I have some pipedreams about things I always concluded never is worth the effort. What would be my task as a former programmer (never employed though). Organizing? producing entertainment(hedonism)? After being in this state this long, why would I ever put my mind into such a trivial thing as for instance gameprogramming. What kind of art would one do? Creating worlds with wars or mushrooms with Koopas? Though there's something there still itching "unmade".

Maybe my abstract reasoning somewhat has gone to hell. I don't even consider myself to exist (in a metaphorical sense of course).

I wish I could do more than recommend, "breathing", vitamin B8 and adaptogens THOUGH you might benefit on non SSRI's like Valdoxan, Moclobemide, Marplan,Nardil, Parnate, Clonidine and guanfacine (Alpha 2 agonists ( who knows )), Tricyclics (Clomipramine, nortriptylin, protriptylin and who),Provigil, and who knows maybe even Mirtazapine and potentially Reboxetine or Atomoxetine or if you accept some serotonin reuptake as well as noradrenaline then Effexor I PREFER not tout it as a fix.

Maybe even Hypericum (St John Worts) could be of benefit.

I'd just like to point those out as tools. Maybe even Dopaminagonists as well. Methylphenidate + Memantine might be an interesting combination though at least here the docs would be too cautious for something like that and I don't actually see the logic behind using a NMDA-antagonist for preventing tolerance. Preventing neurotoxicity perhaps. However speculating as I just did leads to circular reasoning. Everything is to individualistic.

I believe the Anhedonia most refered to here is Anticipatory anhedonia and not consummatory. Therefore I conclude that the body still understand basic rewards. Those "small things" like relaxation, Endorphins. Maybe there's some appreciation for food. That's one thing with Remeron. It make's people crave "food". I've never had problems related to weight in my life. My only "problem" would have been keeping weight if anything. Now this is completely turned over.

So you see there's a lot of "tools" which might at least make one to put up going on despite anhedonia.

I would be surprised if someone by optimizing their lifestyle, Diet, excersise, Getting enough sleep, augmenting with supplements, adaptogens, Trying to avoid stimulants and in some case taking meds

NOT could come at least to the state of mind where one could ask oneself not "Why should I keep on living" but "Why should I not?"

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I have always wondered why these drug makers focus so much on ssri meds and not more on dopamine reuptake meds as well?

ssris seem to only numb the depression while ******* our pleasure zones and then fattening us up, those are the three most common features I have found in ssri's.

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This is a fascinating thread (disclosure -- only read 1st 3 pages and last page).

Between Ritalin and Adderall, has anybody noticed any distinction insofar as each's ability to spark the brain out of its anhedonic funk and actually do productive work?

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I have always wondered why these drug makers focus so much on ssri meds and not more on dopamine reuptake meds as well?

ssris seem to only numb the depression while ******* our pleasure zones and then fattening us up, those are the three most common features I have found in ssri's.

So do I, Therefore I use to call them the SSRI-Mafia. Tianeptine works the opposite, usually more effective and less sideeffects but there were some people "injecting" it somewhere so they put a ban on it. Would anyone put a ban if some morons would inject Prozac? Then we have Amineptine. It worked to good and of course it went verboten as well. It works by Dopamine Reuptake Inihibitation. And then we of course have Wellbutrin which should have taught people a lesson. It's said to work mainly by dopamine reuptake inhibitation and some noradrenalin. On top of that agomelatine works by HT-2c antagonism. HT-2c antagonism doesnt tend to work in itself therefore Melatonergic 1 and 2 receptors is agonized. I haven't got into those pesky details about that but I think we all can see the point.

However, at this time maybe the SSRI-mafia feel theyve got enough cash for their numbing drugs and therefore let Agomelatine in. I wonder how much influence the SSRI-mafia has exhibited over FDA or swedish MPA or if it's LMV. If they've known about Iatrogenic anhedonia and potential Tardive anhedonia

and kept Tianeptine and Amineptine out they should be hanged at the spot.

Despite being overall "sucky" SSRI however probably downregulates and/or desensitation of HT-2a and HT-2c receptors, that's why they at least "numb" out severe states of depression. They might also have an calming effect on the amygdala. Sadly they also probably fill the reward center with Hydroxytryptofan blocking the dopaminergic activity. Zoloft is said to also put some Dopamine there and is probably therefore often stated as the least sucky SSRI for Melancholic Depressions which I assume is associated with Anhedonia.

Edited by General_Failure
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This is a fascinating thread (disclosure -- only read 1st 3 pages and last page).

Between Ritalin and Adderall, has anybody noticed any distinction insofar as each's ability to spark the brain out of its anhedonic funk and actually do productive work?

I have found far more people who found relief with these types of drugs for their drug resistant depression then not. But because so many people abuse them the doctors don't prescribe it much to those of us who may benefit from them. :ranting:

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This is a fascinating thread (disclosure -- only read 1st 3 pages and last page).

Between Ritalin and Adderall, has anybody noticed any distinction insofar as each's ability to spark the brain out of its anhedonic funk and actually do productive work?

I have found far more people who found relief with these types of drugs for their drug resistant depression then not. But because so many people abuse them the doctors don't prescribe it much to those of us who may benefit from them. :ranting:

That's what I seem to be reading too. I'm actually on 30 mg of Adderall, at present, but I've read that Ritalin has been shown to be effective for "apathy" in one or two studies, though i think the studies involved Alzheimer's patients. Adderall doesn't seem to be doing the trick.

Have you had an experience of being denied stimulants for treatment of depression? Maybe it couldn't hurt to pick a different doctor, or to emphasize to your current doctor your ADD-type symptoms, comorbid with depression?

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This is a fascinating thread (disclosure -- only read 1st 3 pages and last page).

Between Ritalin and Adderall, has anybody noticed any distinction insofar as each's ability to spark the brain out of its anhedonic funk and actually do productive work?

I have found far more people who found relief with these types of drugs for their drug resistant depression then not. But because so many people abuse them the doctors don't prescribe it much to those of us who may benefit from them. :ranting:

That's what I seem to be reading too. I'm actually on 30 mg of Adderall, at present, but I've read that Ritalin has been shown to be effective for "apathy" in one or two studies, though i think the studies involved Alzheimer's patients. Adderall doesn't seem to be doing the trick.

Have you had an experience of being denied stimulants for treatment of depression? Maybe it couldn't hurt to pick a different doctor, or to emphasize to your current doctor your ADD-type symptoms, comorbid with depression?

Yes I was just denied a stimulant and told it was from the fact they are so commonly abused now, and or I would have to see another doc which would cost me more money. I will be going back in mid February, so I will bring it up again.

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