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Answers To Curing Anhedonia/numbness/apathy, No. 1


itstrevor

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I made a suggestion to depressionforums about creating a new anhedonia subforum for our growing community. My request was received with a lot of positivity. The lady who responded to me seemed to understand what anhedonia is and that it can be different than regular depression. She said she was going to suggest that to depressionforums and she sees no reason not to do it as it is a very valid and useful suggestion.

So we should very soon be able to create new threads and topics related to anhedonia. It will be much more easier for any new user to browse informations about anhedonia. Because honestly who with anhedonia would want to read this mega thread.....

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It can be difficult to find info in this thread, i like the idea of a subforum.

I've been cycling Modafinil, Tianeptine & Moclobemide. These have worked great for my anhedonia, and i've got some NSI-189 on the way for hippocampal growth which has reports of increasing emotions & nostalgic feelings.

We've learned that SSRIs do not produce their anti depression effects via increasing serotonin. It's via neurogenesis, hippocampal growth. Now NSI-189 is a drug in Phase 2 FDA Trials that increases hippocampal growth by 20% rather than the typical SSRI of 2-5%.

I'll let you guys know it goes.

On another note of Moclobemide, it seems also taking Prozac (I'm aware of the potential serotonin syndrome from the interaction) for a week, then stopping for a week, and initiating Moclobemide one 150mg in the morning, has given me such clear thought, articulation, and increased mood and emotions. I have to cycle this though.

Hoping the NSI-189 is a more permanent solution.

Edited by jaiho
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Ok, been starting on moclobemide recently at 150mg 2x a time. I don't want to go up more than that. I know it supposedly take weeks to work but I did notice some effects. First i find it stimulating in a good way. Winter is coming here and its getting darker and i am always affected by that. I find it harder to focus, work and i get really tired. The main reason i take it is for that. Honestly i dont expect moclobemide to be a silver bullet for anhedonia/no emotions. If it helps than even better. So far I would say I have more energy, more productive and I think it helps me take more rational decisions, a bit less appetite but I dont care that much, I can still eat. Sleeping is a bit harder but I still manage to fall asleep. No worsening of libido or increase in numbness. If moclobemide keeps beeing good, i think i will use only for the winter time like end of october to end of april. This would balance out the loss of serotonin due to winter and back to summer serotonin levels would stil increase by the sunlight without moclo.

I am really against being on a drug all the time, totally against it. You end up not knowing who you really are and long term usage can really modify your receptors profile. Better to use drugs on and off, especially for the good ones.

Ive also started running to do some exercise. Exercise is proven to do A LOT of good things to your brain. While i know more specifically what it does, I wont get into that lol. The point is exercise is good. I had a few good feelings moment after my run that last mayb an hour or two. This is very mild tho but i think it can increase as i keep doing exercise with more and more intensity.

Good luck to all

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we should at least open a thread for moclobemide and combined/adjunct medications, it would be very helpful.

i am very pleased to see that jaiho is having success with the exact combinations ive had success with! namely modafinil tianeptine fluoxetine and moclo!

and also i wonder what the half life of fluoxetine is after one week: i bet the mental clarity you experience on the first moclo day after alternating from fluoxetine is due to fluoxetines metabolite (norfluoxetine) eternal half life: 7-15 days. So, despite you not actually "swallowing" the fluoxetine pill, you are indeed on both substances. Be careful and update us: i have been thinking of starting a similar regime, under shrinks supervision. Afterall, fluoxetine partially worked for me, and i believe in some ways might still be useful, if i manage to counter the sexual dysfunction which for me is a big no go.

jahio, when you say, "stopping for a week", you mean you stay medication free for 7 days? thus washing out the fluox?

Edited by nostromo
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The fluox is still in your body even a week after stopping, and then ill add in moclobe which seems to be more effective with fluox still in your blood. If Moclobe loses effectiveness, i'll take Fluox for a week again. You can take both at the same time but i wouldnt recommend it. There's a few cases of treatment resistant depression being treated with this combination though.

I find cycling Moclobemide is better than staying on it. It only stays affects your monoamines for 24 hours. For the down days, even 2x 150MG will lift my mood immediately, and the magic emotional return doesn't always happen, but it seems to happen when fluoxetine is still in my system.

Good to hear it's working for you iamnumb. The best thing about the drug is lack of side effects, except perhaps insomnia if you take it too late in the day. If you take it daily, the bioavailability goes up with each dose, and i feel myself becoming less articulate. So i found cycling it is better for me.

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Nostromo I am currently talking with a depressionforums moderator to have our own subforum. Hopefully it can be done soon and we could then start more specific threads(ex:recovery, medication, other treatments, etc....).

Jaiho, yes I can notice it working immediately. Nothing really fun or increased emotions about it tho, at least not yet. I still like my kratom once in a while to get a nice buzz :-) I just find moclobemide very practical, no side effects, good stimulation that makes me more productive, slighly better mood, etc... caffeine seems to mix well with it, it last longer and the crash is less pronounced. Its just easier to function on it.

I am interested to know how you cycle it jaiho? I am also wondering if it may have a better antidepressant effect by taking it over time. They say it supposedly takes a few weeks to work like other antidepressants. Maybe its bullsh!t tho. Have you tried taking it continuously for a few weeks?

I am all for cycling drugs and mostly against taking them all the time. Tho its good to have something that works against tiredness to go through winter and dark days.

I just dont understand why moclobemide is not more popular. It has almost no side effects except mayb a bit of insomnia and its helpful. Most other drugs are really crap compared to that and when they do work you will get loads of side effects.

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I tried it for two weeks. a mate of mine who is a huge advocate for moclobemide + selegiline (he put me onto moclobe) suggested that adding selegiline counteracts the dopamine drop from Moclobe. Moclobemide increases Serotonin & NE but can reduce DE. Selegiline, is a textbook nono, but this is only if you take a higher dose of selegiline.

Selegiline + Moclobemide inhibits MAO-A & MAO-B together. This mimics the effect of the stronger, older anti depressants Parnate & Nardil. (Irreversible MAOIs)

The difference by adding Selegiline, is that while it is an irreversible MAOI, it only affects MAO-B in low doses. ( <10mg)

Moclobemide only affects MAO-A, and partially MAO-B as long as you remain at less than 300MG daily.

This combo in theory should be the ultimate anti depressant, because it has minimal side effects compared to the old MAOIs, while producing the same effect of inhibiting both MAO-A & MAO-B.

I have yet to try it for any period of time as i haven't been that depressed, and i wanted to try other things first.

At the moment i take Moclobemide 150MG when i wake up and feel fatigued/down. And it perks me straight up generally.

I also take Tryptophan before bed, and have just started NSI-189 40MG, will stay on that for a month for its full hippocampus regeneration.

I'm also not sure why Moclobemide isn't more popular. Many psychiatrists seem to write it off as ineffective. It's confusing thats for sure. Also the fact it isn't available in the USA as well.

That's why i was looking for alternatives to SSRI/SNRIs. They just numb you out too much, and have an artifical happiness attached to them. MAOIs feel less druggy.

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Yeah ive been interested of moclobemide + selegiline. It sounds like a nice combo to have both serotonin and dopamine with little side effects. Selegiline is irreversible tho, perhaps just taking 2.5mg every other day would do the trick. Although this combo should be safe in theory if only low doses are used, no psychiatrist would approve that.

If you want to try that i would suggest not to mess around prozac at all. Selegiline will build up and who knows if mao-a is not affected even a little over time. Personally, I would not even touch prozac with moclobemide no matter the dosage. There are many documented death from moclobemide + ssris.

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Actually i did find a Psychiatrist who approved it, but he is retired. So i self medicate for the reason that many psychs and GPs only believe in handing out SSRIs for depression.

I did alot of research about prozac and moclobe interactions. It's true there have been deaths, because of high doses. I'm very careful with that.

I wouldn't recommend anyone try it but im using low doses, and it's potent anti depression.

I wouldn't add Selegiline to Moclobe while prozac was in my system.

However, very low dose Selegiline + Prozac would be safe.

Edited by jaiho
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Hmmm what kind of effect you get with prozac and moclo? Like more emotions? I guess you dont get any numbing effect from prozac since ur not on it very long and only at low doses?

I think anyone reading this should avoid this combination unless being extremely careful, doing a lot of research and using only low doses. Im just doing some prevention so people dont start taking normal doses of moclobemide and prozac at same thing thinking it is safe. Its not. It still sound interesting tho.

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Okay, so my anhedonia is nowhere near as bad as it used to be. I am confident that this is a non-issue for me anymore

Well done man, that's amazing. Looking at your most recent posts, it seems that acceptance is the real key here.

Here's a quote from an awesome book I'm reading on trauma and its resolution, 'In An Unspoken Voice' by Peter Levine, that affirms this. In a nutshell, Levine's very plausible theory is the numbing humans experience when overwhelmed by stress (traumatised), is exactly the same kind of reaction as when an animal is unable to fight or flee from a predator, and so 'plays dead' as a last ditch attempt at survival. Wild animals usually come out of this state shortly after the predator loses interest, but for humans this reaction has a tendency to persist long after the initial event or stressful period:

The acute fear that occurred at the time of traumatic event, of course, no longer exists. What happens, however, is that one provokes and perpetuates a new fear state (one literally frightens oneself) and becomes one's own self-imposed predator by bracing against the residual sensations of immobility [the emotional numbing we are all familiar with] and rage. While paralysis itself need not actually be terrifying, what is frightening is our resistance to feeling paralyzed. Because we don't know it is a temporary state, and because our bodies don't register that we are now safe, we remain stuck in the past, rather than being in present time.

The moral is quite simple: get out of your own way. If you learn to accept your feelings of numbness/helpless and sit peacefully with them, your nervous system will return to its equilibrium. This usually happens very gradually, as 'coming back to life' too quickly can easily lead to retraumatisation. So patience is key, as well as a trust in your ability to heal.

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This thread is locked but only because there is now a sub-forum/board for topics relating to anhedonia and so that in the future this topic can be better maintained. It's a very long topic, at over 3000 posts and everyone's input is incredibly valuable and appreciated.

Hopefully the new sub-forum/board will benefit everyone who discusses this topic as well as new members searching for information and support. The topic will remain pinned and every ten pages it will be locked and a new topic with the same name started, although hopefully having a sub-forum dedicated to anhedonia will help to encourage individual topics where more specific advice can be found :smile:

The link to the continuation of this thread, which is a pinned topic in the new sub-forum is: http://www.depressionforums.org/forums/topic/105679-answers-to-curing-anhedonianumbnessapathy-no-2/ and at the end of every ten pages this will be updated. Please continue the discussion, and thank you for so much input.

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