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TryingToFindTheAnswer

How Does The Whole "nice Guys Finish Last" Silliness Work Again?

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Okay so how is being a "nice guy" a bad thing again? This guy I work with has a girlfriend now and acts differently towards me. He isn't friendly anymore and acts too cool for school. Kind of lame.

So that reminded me about how there's that way of thinking that says nice guys finish last with women and you shouldn't be a nice guy. And it reminded me of that last gal I dated telling me I'm too nice.

I though you weren't supposed to change the way that you are for anyone. So why would you want to act a different way? I don't get it. What's a "nice guy" anyways? I act nice/polite to people. Why is that a bad thing?

These types of things can make me feel negatively about myself and seem to make the depression worse so that's why I'm posting in this forum.

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Being a nice guy is a great thing. You should never try to change that. The thing that turns women off is when you're a "Nice Guy", with a capital N, this is a cultural phenomenon that you can look up on the internet. Basically a "Nice Guy" is a guy who THINKS he is the nicest thing since sliced bread, and that women are obligated to find his niceness attractive, but in reality he is dysfunctional and needy and self-absorbed, and women who aren't interested in him get classified as Biotches.

So there you go - being nice is good, don't stop being nice :)

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Hi TryingToFindTheAnswer,

Being a 'nice guy' is great, so go on to be a really loveable, caring and helpful guy with no expectations of gain. You can go onto be a person that gives off very positive vibes and in demand.

Most people love a guy who is lovingly kind , caring, serving others and doint it all because that is the way he is. Be of real selfness service to other without wanting anything in return. Be calm, be nice, be helpful because that is the kind of friend people want. Go the extra mile for people, they will love and cherish you for it.

Have a lot of loving thoughts about everyone you meet, regardless. Give of real vibes from your heart, face people and send those wonderful vibes to their heart from your heart.

Yes it does work, it makes you feel great and other people then love to see you.

Best Wishes

Jim Bow

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Hi TryingToFindTheAnswer,

Firstly just be the kind of guy you real love to be. Go with your natural talents and use those the way you really should.

Most people know the person they would love to become. So become the best friend a person could have or want.

Forget the other rubbish you hear - be the best of yourself for yourself.

Best Wishes

Jim Bow

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Oh you mean being narcissistic or just full of yourself? But how could that ever get confused with being a nice guy?

Hey TTFTA,

These "Nice Guys" act nice on the surface, while inside they're really full of themselves and angry at everyone else. So their "niceness" comes off as creepy and weird most of the time, because of that.

I should add that the people who are out there saying "don't be a nice guy, nice guys always finish last", are usually the aforementioned "Nice Guys". lol.

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Oh you mean being narcissistic or just full of yourself? But how could that ever get confused with being a nice guy?

Hey TTFTA,

These "Nice Guys" act nice on the surface, while inside they're really full of themselves and angry at everyone else. So their "niceness" comes off as creepy and weird most of the time, because of that.

I ended up married to that kind of "Nice Guy" but he genuinely seemed like a nice guy, which is what I wanted, because he was so good to his friends and family. Apparently the "Nice Guy" act didn't included spouses.

I had a friend years ago who really was a nice guy. Women kept taking advantage of him but he was a keeper. I was already in a relationship so we were just good friends until he got sick and died. If I hadn't been in a relationship I would have claimed him.

That saying kinda fits nice girls too---at least this one.

Best wishes.

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henriththecat,

I have some anger issues myself. Though I try to be nice to people when I'm not upset/irritable. My emotions range wildly. I'm also pretty self absorbed in a negative way (low self-esteem). Would you give me with the label "creepy nice guy"?

onmyown,

Thank you that's encouraging to hear :)

---------------------------

So here's a definition of a nice guy that I've come across: "Guys who totally misrepresent their intentions toward girls and try to use emotional manipulation and a facade of friendship as an excuse to get closer". So... what's wrong with being attracted to a girl, getting to be friends with her and maybe at some point trying to pursuade her to be in a relationship? Is that having bad intentions? I thought that was somewhat normal to be friends first.

Not trying to argue with anyone I just really want to understand this.

Edited by TryingToFindTheAnswer

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TTFTA, I don't know you so I'm not going to try and put a label on you. Only you can know what your true intentions and feelings are.

I guess to sum up my main point, you asked why do nice guys finish last and here is my answer: nice guys don't finish last. nice guys are the best kind of guys. That statement is a myth perpetuated by fake "nice guys" who want to justify their rejection by women.

Best wishes,

Henri

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TTFTA, that's the definition of a fake nice guy---the ones with ulterior motives who really aren't nice---not a real one. Real nice guys are nice just because that's who they are and it's perfectly natural for people to develop more feelings in a friendship. The best relationships require the people to be friends in my opinion. Sometimes both friends don't develop more feelings for each other and sometimes they do. My selection didn't turn out so great even though we'd been friends for years so I'm not a very reliable source for good information on this topic though. I'm pretty much done with the idea of anything other than trying to make more friends.

Best wishes.

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TTFTA, I don't know you so I'm not going to try and put a label on you. Only you can know what your true intentions and feelings are.

I guess to sum up my main point, you asked why do nice guys finish last and here is my answer: nice guys don't finish last. nice guys are the best kind of guys. That statement is a myth perpetuated by fake "nice guys" who want to justify their rejection by women.

Best wishes,

Henri

Thank you. You summed up all I was going to say. If person thinks they deserve a reward for being nice then they really aren't nice. These guys who complain about "nice guys finishing last" all think that because they were nice to a girl they "deserve" her and that she is somehow "obligated" to fall for them. Being a decent a human shouldn't require a payoff in the end. You do it because you feel it's right, not because you're going to get something for.

TTFTA, if some girl tells you that you're too nice then find another girl, but sometimes what people refer to as being nice means "passive" and that you don't say what you want enough and defer to others. Taking the considerations of others into account is in fact "very nice" but if you want to have Chinese food and the other person wants mexican and you've agreed to Mexican all the previous times before, then yes, you are indeed being "too nice." It doesn't mean be a jerk, it just means asking for the same respect and consideration you're giving. This also pertains to dating. Don't just help the girl you're interested in with her bags. Let her know you're interested. Don't think "if I help her with her bags every day, she'll see that I'm the one." Telepathy exists only in science fiction. You have to say something. And if she says no, keeping helping her with her bags, because that's what a nice guys do.

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My definition of "nice guy" is actually different, and, no offense to anyone, might be closer to what TryingToFindTheAnswer has in mind...

A "nice guy" in that regard, is, in fact, a nice guy. But being a nice guy like that has an extreme disadvantage when it comes to trying to go after girls, because the girls will see one as a great friend they can rely on, and not the "boyfriend" type. Happened to me a million times. A nice guy will generally share feelings and listen to a girl's feelings, which is not how dating these days goes. A girl wants someone who will surprise them, anger them, etc., but have the attraction. Basically a person they will go to the "nice guy" to complain to. That's why it's always said that nice guys finish last, because they will always be the ones stuck in the friend zone, while the mean guys or the guys who put on a show, are the ones who get into relationships with the girls you want.

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Arthur, your post was awesome! Andrew, I thought your post gave a good perspective too. As for dating these days, I'm totally clueless. Trying to date when I was in my early 40s was not a positive experience. I met a few of the "Nice" guys who felt entitled and spent the dates complaining. Never did go on a second date.

My friend I spoke of earlier, I used to try to coach him to get him out of the friend zone with the women he took out but he wouldn't put into play what I suggested so he stayed stuck in the friend zone. I gave him advice similar to Arthur's post above.

Best wishes.

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My definition of "nice guy" is actually different, and, no offense to anyone, might be closer to what TryingToFindTheAnswer has in mind... A "nice guy" in that regard, is, in fact, a nice guy. But being a nice guy like that has an extreme disadvantage when it comes to trying to go after girls, because the girls will see one as a great friend they can rely on, and not the "boyfriend" type. Happened to me a million times. A nice guy will generally share feelings and listen to a girl's feelings, which is not how dating these days goes. A girl wants someone who will surprise them, anger them, etc., but have the attraction. Basically a person they will go to the "nice guy" to complain to. That's why it's always said that nice guys finish last, because they will always be the ones stuck in the friend zone, while the mean guys or the guys who put on a show, are the ones who get into relationships with the girls you want.

Nice guys let themselves get put into the friend zone by not making it clear that they want to be considered romantic prospects. They assume it will happen because they are nice. It doesn't. Jerks, on the other hand, have no problem saying, "Hey, let's go out on a date." So they get the date. By making your feelings known, you let her know she actually has a choice between "Jerk Who Likes Me" and "Nice Guy Who Likes Me." Otherwise it's just "Jerk Who Likes Me" and "My Nice Friend Who Has No Romantic Feelings Towards Me."

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Okay so I think I get the whole ulterior motive version of the nice guy definition. But then there's the definition that a nice guy is a push-over. Why is having a passive personality trait a bad thing? I thought everyone is different and this was a good thing. Why is it acceptable thinking nowadays to basically be saying "the way you are (your personality) is in fact wrong and you need to change it in order to be the kind of person I think you need to be"?

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I don't think anyone here has said anyone needs to change themselves. People can be who they are. If someone's behavior isn't giving them the results they want then they may want to change their behavior. Behavior and personality are two different things, one is changeable and the other not so much.

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It's wrong in the sense that you need to be much more edgy and forward today in order to get what you want. It's not saying it's "wrong," per se, it's saying that it isn't the right one for much of the population. Arthur is definitely spot on with his idea, that you need to speak your mind and say how you really feel, in order for things to happen.

However, I think there's another component in that because of TV and so many other things today, there is a different "look" for people. In relationships, not only is it that the girls go where the date is, I think (and I think this is even more major than that), they have a sense of pride feeling that they see a bad boy who they are instantly attracted to, and think "oh, I can change them." When you're a nice guy, girls instantly know they will get everything they want. To some that's great, but I have friends who have told me that it gets boring, and they'd much rather have a relationship where they're challenged to try and make something work. It's almost like the Eminem song "Love the Way You Lie." At least, that's my opinion.

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Okay so how is being a "nice guy" a bad thing again? This guy I work with has a girlfriend now and acts differently towards me. He isn't friendly anymore and acts too cool for school. Kind of lame.

So that reminded me about how there's that way of thinking that says nice guys finish last with women and you shouldn't be a nice guy. And it reminded me of that last gal I dated telling me I'm too nice.

I though you weren't supposed to change the way that you are for anyone. So why would you want to act a different way? I don't get it. What's a "nice guy" anyways? I act nice/polite to people. Why is that a bad thing?

These types of things can make me feel negatively about myself and seem to make the depression worse so that's why I'm posting in this forum.

the one great thing that will effect you in a very negetive way is to be or try to be someone you are not. nice guys finishing last is only a myth or even worse a straight out lye, WE don't finish last, just being a good person puts you in first place from the get go. i have an awsome, smart, beautiful, nice and alll around very good wife, we've been married thirty-three years and she just gets sexier from year to year. as for your "friend" he just exposed himself for what he really was all along, so you lost nothing from his friendship. like i said before, be who you are not who others want you to be.

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I don't think anyone here has said anyone needs to change themselves. People can be who they are. If someone's behavior isn't giving them the results they want then they may want to change their behavior. Behavior and personality are two different things, one is changeable and the other not so much.

I see what you're saying but the idea of trying to change my personality so I'm more attractive in the dating area doesn't seem like a good thing. Changing my behavior would be the same thing as changing my personality or appearing to have a different personality. Just seems like I would end up trying to present a false image of myself. Perhaps by acting a certain way does change who you are eventually but just really rubs me the wrong way when you're supposed to accept yourself the way you are. That's why I disagree with the whole pickup artist thing because it tells you that you need to change the way you are.

Edited by TryingToFindTheAnswer

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When you're a nice guy, girls instantly know they will get everything they want. To some that's great, but I have friends who have told me that it gets boring, and they'd much rather have a relationship where they're challenged to try and make something work.

Ya nice guys probably get a little bit boring. But I'm sure that from time to time gals get tired of treated badly by bad boys. I could be wrong though. Just seems logically that there are ups and downsides to being in a relationship with any personality types since things usually aren't black and white.

Edited by TryingToFindTheAnswer

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the one great thing that will effect you in a very negetive way is to be or try to be someone you are not. nice guys finishing last is only a myth or even worse a straight out lye

I would be inclined to believe that simply because I've known quite a few nice guys that are married.

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I think (and I think this is even more major than that), they have a sense of pride feeling that they see a bad boy who they are instantly attracted to, and think "oh, I can change them." When you're a nice guy, girls instantly know they will get everything they want. To some that's great, but I have friends who have told me that it gets boring, and they'd much rather have a relationship where they're challenged to try and make something work. It's almost like the Eminem song "Love the Way You Lie." At least, that's my opinion.

I don't know your friends so I cannot speak to what they say, but I think this is a rather harmful generalization. Straight and bi women are attracted to men with confidence who carry themselves in an assured way. Most women that I know of don't go into a relationship thinking they will change a man, and they aren't attracted to "bad boys" in principle at all. I think we're getting back to the issue of some people being too nice which translates to being too passive, versus being confident and self-assured, which is (in my opinion) more attractive to most people.

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For a woman that is ready for something real, without all the drama, chasing, being chased, validation from attention from other men, need to be with someone that "keeps things exciting" (although excitement is great in a different sense of the word) I believe she will go for the nice guy. I think the one's that maybe finish last are the guys without boundaries, the ones that let her mess around with their feelings, string them along, always make the decisions in a relationship, pay for absolutely everything etc etc. The same goes the other way around.

These boundaries show self worth. It's possible to still be kind, considerate, thoughtful and loving whilst respecting your own boundaries. Although much is to be said for the partners that we choose as well as ourselves and whether they are good for us.

Best wishes

Leila

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