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crashtst, March 20, 2009 in Other Depression and Anxiety Medications
We have one member (see page 4) who's had success with it. I don't know where you live, but tianepine is commonly prescribed in non-English speaking countries but usually not for depression. Many English-speaking countries (Us and I think the UK) have banned it, making it illegal to possess or import. From what I've read about it, it shows promise helping senile dementia. Did you Google tianepine for information? It's best you ask your pdoc about it and if it's available in your country.
As I understand it --
Tianeptine (Stablon, Coaxil) was developed by the French pharmaceutical giant Servier, originally as a treatment for schizophrenia, and it really wasn't very effective. Servier let the patent lapse without obtaining FDA approval in the US and most Western countries. Only after the patent lapsed did Servier realize that tianeptine was an effective antidepressant.
So the reason you can't buy Tianeptine in the US, Canada, UK etc. is political and economical. Servier doesn't want to jump through the FDA's hoops, nor finance multi-million-dollar drug trials, to get approval for a med they don't have a patent for. If they did, every drug company in the world would manufacture generic Stablon, approved by the FDA on Servier's nickel.
*****steps up on the soapbox*****
The FDA could and should let Tianeptine into the USA for humanitarian reasons, but Big Pharm Lobbyist Dollars have prevented that for decades. US drug manufacturers will keep French drugs out, no matter who it hurts.
*****steps back down*****
Several drug companies are working on variants of tianeptine.....if they make a slightly different form of the drug, that's still effective, they can patent it and get FDA approval, and market it as a treatment for IBS or anxiety or whatever. Then your pdoc can write a scrip for you. But that's still a few years off.
WHY SHOULD YOU TRY TIANEPTINE?
1)It's just as effective as any SSRI, maybe more so. Which is flippin' interesting, because while SSRI's slosh the seratonin around longer, tianeptine SOAKS IT ALL UP. That's right, tianeptine does THE EXACT OPPOSITE THING that Zoloft/Lexapro/Effexor/Prozac does.........and yet it still works to relieve depression and anxiety. So much for the 'low levels of neurotransmitters in the brain' theory of depression!
****so why all the continued development of more SSRI's? Because they relieve depression and people can take a pill once a day, and you can't really overdose on an SSRI. So it's easier and safer for the drug companies and your pdoc. To Servier's credit, they aren't satisfied with sledgehammer-action drugs that leave us fat, achy, and NOT horny. Which brings us to....
.....2)Tianeptine won't make you fat, achy, lethargic, and unenthused about sex. Generally. YMMV.
.....3)Tianeptine is processed through the kidneys, not the liver. Good for us with wonky livers. Downside is you have to take your Stablon pill three times a day, and you're bound to forget that afternoon dose.
.....4)One dose. You start at full strength, no need to taper up. One pill, three times a day, and you'll know in a couple weeks if it's gonna work.
BUT I CAN'T GET TIANEPTINE!!!! IT'S ILLEGAL!!!!!
Yes, you can. The internet is a wonderful thing. And no, it's not illegal. Tianeptine lacks FDA approval, but it's not a banned substance. It may be illegal for an internet drug company to ship it into the USA, but it's not illegal for you to possess it. The internet pharmacies don't worry about it, and neither should you....your responsibility to yourself and your family trumps 'following the rules'. If tianeptine treats my anxiety and depression, without never-ending weight gain and the risk of diabetes and heart disease that comes with an extra 50 lbs of SSRI-induced fat, then as a REAL MAN, HUSBAND, AND FATHER, my choice is clear. And one month ago I started using Stablon.
WOW!!! WHAT DID YOUR PDOC SAY?
I was worried he would refuse to see me, but he was very supportive. In fact, he was willing to write me a prescription if the overseas pharmacy required one. He wasn't very familiar with Stablon, but he read the sample package I brought him and he's eager to see how this works out. I'll know by November if this is gonna work. Having gone off SSRIs twice before, I know I have six months before depression symptoms return. If I'm still feeling good in November, then I'll know Stablon works for me.
SOUNDS LIKE A PLAN. BUT WHAT IF IT DOESN'T WORK?
Then I'll try the Emsam patch, or Servier's next antidepressant in the pipeline (Valdoxan). But I can't go back to Zoloft or Lexapro....they work, but they'll **** me one day.
WOW. KEEP US POSTED, WILL YOU, DEET?
You bet I will.
I beg to differ with you regarding possession of tianeptine. Tianeptine is banned from importation and is illegal to posses in the US. Push-come-to-shove in regards to ordering meds from foreign sources, US Customs prohibits importation of medications from all foreign countries. Customs has the right to confiscate the medications. This practice has been lax for many years, but enforcement may come at anytime.
What if you have an allergic reaction? You go to the ER, tell them you took tiaeptine and it goes on from there. Think about the ramifications.
BTW, legitimate online pharmacies require a prescription. The ones that don't may ship you something you didn't order (substitute) and keep your money, or may not ship anything at all and keep your money.
Fair points, Sheepie. Long time no see, BTW!
But further food for thought -- from Medicinenet.com:
Here's how the FDA puts it in a consumer advisory on its web site:
"Don't purchase from foreign web sites at this time because generally it will be illegal to import the drugs bought from these sites, the risks are greater, and there is very little the U.S. government can do if you get ripped off."
And there's the rub: the words "generally" and "at this time." Under current law, stated in an FDA "guidance" paper titled "Coverage of Personal Importations," the importation or interstate shipment of unapproved new drugs is prohibited. The definition of "unapproved" includes "foreign-made versions of U.S. approved drugs that have not received FDA approval to demonstrate they meet the federal requirements for safety and effectiveness. It is the importer's obligation to demonstrate to the FDA that any drugs offered for importation have been approved by FDA."
Under those rules, it appears to be illegal to import into the U.S. the cholesterol-lowering drug Lipitor purchased in Canada, even though the drug is made in Ireland for shipment to both the U.S. and Canada. To make things even more confusing, the FDA guidance cites "circumstances in which FDA may consider exercising enforcement discretion and refrain from taking legal action against illegally imported drugs."
These extenuating circumstances include importing an unapproved drug for a serious condition for which there may be no effective treatment available in the U.S. But the drug can't be marketed to U.S. citizens by distributors of the drug in question, the product can't be considered to "represent an unreasonable risk," and the patient doing the importing has to be ready to affirm in writing that the drug is for his/her own use. The patient also has to be willing to furnish contact details for a physician in the U.S., or provide "evidence that the product is for the continuation of a treatment begun in a foreign country."
To hedge its bets, the FDA cautions that "even if all of the factors noted in the guidance are present, the drugs remain illegal and the FDA may decide that such drugs should be refused entry or seized. The guidance represents the FDA's current thinking regarding the issues of personal importation and is intended only to provide operating guidance for FDA personnel. The guidance does not create any legally enforceable rights for the public; nor does it operate to bind the FDA or the public."
As for the consequences, FDA associate commissioner for planning and policy William Hubbard told the Wall Street Journal in March 2003 that "any party participating in" an import plan in which a health insurer or claims processor helps arrange a purchase in Canada "does so at its own legal risk." The article also quotes Hubbard as saying that "our highest enforcement priority would not be actions against consumers."
"The agency doesn't go after individuals, per se," says Tom McGinnis, PharmD, director of pharmacy affairs for the FDA. "The agency has tended to focus its priorities on people making money from this illegal activity."
McGinnis tells WebMD that the personal importation policy "has been in existence for a long time, probably since the '50s, and that if you read it carefully, only deals with things that are not available in the U.S." McGinnis says that the policy was intended to allow patients with serious, life-threatening conditions who have exhausted all available alternatives in the U.S. to try, under the guidance of their physicians, alternative therapies approved for the condition in other countries.
U.S. Customs, for its part, warns travelers not to assume that medications approved abroad are also legal in the U.S., or that the labeled uses for which a drug is approved elsewhere hold true in the United States. The Customs service also cautions that:
* Some medications available only by prescription in the U.S. may be sold over the counter in foreign countries. They could be dangerous to use without medical supervision.
* Some drugs that appear to be made in the U.S. may be counterfeits.
* It may be a violation of federal or state law to be in possession of some drugs without a prescription from a U.S. physician.
* All imported medications must be properly declared to U.S. Customs.
The Customs service warns that "when the type of drug, the quantity, or the combination of various drugs arouse suspicions, U.S. Customs inspectors will ordinarily contact the nearest FDA or DEA [Drug Enforcement Administration] office for advice and will then make a final determination about whether to release or detain the article."
And if all of the above makes perfect sense to you, we'd like to know what you've been taking -- we'd like some, too.
Sooooo.........no one from the FDA is gonna break down my door. But if I were importing illegal drug, for example, well, that would get me in serious trouble. Or if I was selling tianeptine to others.
What I'm curious about is what is a 'banned' substance? As opposed to a 'controlled' substance or an 'unapproved' substance. I'd like to see the FDA 'ban' tianeptine in writing, and explain any penalties for possession. Everything else I've read is just internet buzz.
I totally agree with you about the risks and unknowns associated with foreign pharmacies, and that's why I'm glad I have my pdoc looking over my shoulder.
Hey Deet, it has been a long time. Welcome back to the Forums.
You did great homework with tianeptine. Your post does say it's illegal to have a med that has not approved for use in The US.
My iinterpretation of a banned substancel Is something (ike meds made in foreign countries are not used) that doesn't meet the FDA requirements for use in the US.
A controlled substance can be banned from use in the US. Usually those drugs are benzo's or any that can be abused.
for mental health usage. For example, tianeptine is not apporoved for use in the US. Also controlled drugs may require your Social Security to obtain and why the drug is needed for use in the USth
Here's another scenario: Pierre, the French depressive, visits the USA and brings his prescription Stablon with him. Would it be confiscated, and would he be arrested? I can't believe he would, since he has a prescription.
Unfortunately, my Stablon experiment was a failure. Turns out that for me, mopping up serotonin does NOT make me feel good. My anxiety levels grew over several weeks and I crashed into a depression. I am now on Cymbalta, continuing my search for an effective AD that won't overwhelm me with side effects.
Interesting thing....if Stablon was actually making me feel worse by robbing me of serotonin....I started to feel better a couple days after quitting. It has a VERY short half-life, so my improved mood could well be due to the lack of Stablon in my brain, and my serotonin runs wild and free.
Oh well. It was worth a shot.
Do you have a list of online pharmacy's that wouldn't scam us. Im very interested and this sounds promising to alleviate depression symptoms. Any help would be much appreciated, thank you
Stablon, yeah i got some of that stuff, still have, tried it but obviously not long enough. Maybe i should. But i am on welbutrin, Zoloft, Serouquel, Ativan. xanax better gotta switch. I took my Xanax and could move which is why i am even online.
I am almost 40, Female, all my life up and down. Down now, the worst ever. NO energy, no nothing. Just dont care. All i do is read, tv, and i take care of my doggie, my only friend, for real. depression led to a divorce, my daughter is so distant; they say she has done that so she can prepare herself if i **** myself.?? She knows, ive tried, want to do it. I have tried numerous attempts, but survived.
So basically ive been on and off them al, pills, prozac, paxil, effexor (SUCKS!) weight gain, no good days. AND on top of it all i was on pain pills years ago, legit, now on methadone but detoxing and at a dose under 20 mg.
I feel like s***. nothing matters,. dont wanna do nothing! What the hell did i do to get this bad?
Wondering if Stablon would help, but you cant take it along with welbutrin and zoloft, Right?
Anyone on Seroquel? first time i took it, felt GREAT the next day. Slept GOOD. Now, nothing. 25mg. Dont even bother anymore. my sister said it made her a zombie. (same issues w/ her but not as bad)
Is it really depression? I ask the doc, think outside the box. I dont know what else to do. I want to have a life, not sit around on SSDI afraid to even go anywhere or look at myself anymore. lost some weight, but thats cause i dont eat much anymore.
Well, thats all, just my first post and happened in this post cause i was googling the stablon. Maybe the stuff will work, but then again, that was the year i made an attempt, then in treatment. and no better since. docs just arent helping my brain or my body and they say i am healthy- no other issues. whatever.
Is it really depression? I ask the doc, think outside the box.
Yep, I'm not convinced there's such a thing a non-circumstantial depression. I think people get depressed because of health issues. The body and brain are machines, and when they don't work right, of course you're going to be depressed. If you can't live normally, of course...
For those interested in how Stablon (tianeptine) could possibly work, you might be interested in hearing from a guy who thinks serotonin is absolutely NOT what they say it is. His name's Ray Peat, and he makes some astounding points. Google "Ray Peat Serotonin, depression, and aggression"
I'm going to be trying this drug, regardless of what people say on here, as well as some other serotonin blockers/dopamine agonists (dopamine is actually a serotonin antagonist):
Bromocriptine, Lisuride, LSD (maybe low doses), Zacopride, and T3 thyroid hormone.
Is it really depression? I ask the doc, think outside the box.Yep, I'm not convinced there's such a thing a non-circumstantial depression. I think people get depressed because of health issues. The body and brain are machines, and when they don't work right, of course you're going to be depressed. If you can't live normally, of course...For those interested in how Stablon (tianeptine) could possibly work, you might be interested in hearing from a guy who thinks serotonin is absolutely NOT what they say it is. His name's Ray Peat, and he makes some astounding points. Google "Ray Peat Serotonin, depression, and aggression"I'm going to be trying this drug, regardless of what people say on here, as well as some other serotonin blockers/dopamine agonists (dopamine is actually a serotonin antagonist):Bromocriptine, Lisuride, LSD (maybe low doses), Zacopride, and T3 thyroid hormone.
Guess I should update on this. I got stablon from two different sources: they were both cheap though, and probably from India. I can't remember. The point is, if it was the real stuff, it sucked. Couldn't take it for more than 2 days in a row. I got a ton of different drugs by ordering online, this and that agonists or antagonists, not necessarily for depression; and, while I can't really stop you from trying them, I'd have to say they are all worthless and mostly harmful. Always, always try just a ridiculously small amount first. Most of you probably know this, but being on a drug you don't like is probably the most hellish experience possible. There's a lot of "nootropics" out there too- well good luck. My guess is that companies will talk up and sell any bull**** because they know desperate people like us will buy it. If that was real stablon, I've seriously lost some respect for the French. Also, I'd recommend to trust your feelings and DON'T TAKE ANYTHING FOR MORE THAN A WEEK IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT. In my experience, there is no "breakthrough" that can happen months in. You'll probably just end up embarrassing yourself.
I still have the same theory about "depression". Good biology leads to happy people. If you are depressed- and I mean really, you've thought outside the box, explored, considered all options- it's because something's messed up with you. I don't have any motivation to spread that message though, because it's not a very hopeful one. I just wish our society would just man up and start ****ing people. In a society that wasn't struggling and actually cared about human decency, it would be natural. I'm thinking primarily for myself, but then again, there are so many people out there who are much worse off than me (old near-homeless drug junkies), so maybe I'll start something someday for their sake. Hell is a bottomless pit, and it makes me shudder to think of what's it's like to be in their position. This society really needs to grow some balls, and not tolerate the suffering of its inhabitants. But in this world, it's dog eat dog, a world run on oppression and slave labor, even if we don't see the extent of it here in the USA.
I just went thru a trial period of taking Stablon, but I couldn't tolerate it. I have major depression w some anxiety, this has been with me since childhood, I am now 50 yrs old.
I had weaned off of Prozac then started Stablon 1x 12.5 day for a few days, then up to 2x day for about 2 more wks. As the days went by, I had an increasing amount of irritability, restlessness, poor sleep quality, crazy dreams, inner anger and rage feelings...and of course the ever present depression and suicidal ideations. It even got so I was scratching up my arms, I felt like I wanted to peel my skin off! Very strange, I was so hoping it would help me.
I never felt the euphoric effect that some people have reported either. I must also note that I have FM/CFS and am very sensitive to meds...makes it hard to find things that my system can tolerate.
So, now I'm trying a low dose of Abilify and might add the Prozac back in eventually. Prozac has always been the only AD that doesn't flip me out w side effects. I'm going to take a break from it for awhile to see if it will work again after a med vacation.
Anyway, I spent hours researching Tianeptine and found so little info from actual patient experiences, so I thought I'd add mine here. Hope this helps someone. Good luck fellow fighters.
Anything NEW to report re/ Tiaeptine? Has anyone been on it for several years w/ good results?
Since there's a relatively new query about this medication from this year, I thought I'd respond: yes, I've used Tianeptine for several years and consider it to have saved my life, when combined with other treatments, from crippling depression. I think it's a shame it's not distributed in the US.
I would contest the definition above that 'banned substances' means 'anything med not approved by the FDA.' Phenibut, for example, is an effective drug used by the Russian space program for years. It's legal here as a 'vitamin/supplement,' which it assuredly is not. More to the point, though, Tianeptine is an inoffensive molecule which appears in no portion of the US code of law, nor is it a controlled substance. It has the benefit of having a relatively low side-effect profile (I have sleeping difficulty which it's fine on, but some report strange or unpleasant dreams…some get a bit of dry mouth, but less than with most antidepressants), practically nothing for some, like me (it's the only med I can live a life that resembles something normal on, and restores my ability to feel pleasure subtly).The technical: though Tianeptine/Stablon (or 'Coaxil') does moderately reduce synaptic serotonin, it's unlikely that's it's primary mechanism of action. More recent science has revealed action on NMDA receptors and other targets. I don't care: it works.Now the bad: as far as we know, it's safe, and certainly seems to lack the many nasty long-term effects of other tricyclic antidepressants (those are valuable drugs, but they can affect eyes, lungs, and, if you're stupid, the heart, if I remember correctly; for whatever reason, though tianeptine is a structurally different 'atypical tricyclic' which has a completely different profile. Trust me. Anyway, the bad part was supposed to be that the US, so far as I know, has the best research protocols on drugs after they reach the market ('Phase IV studies'), and we don't get to see that with Tianeptine, though it's been around a while with only one major it's recently come to light that a very few (perhaps--PERHAPS--3 in 1000 patients) can get 'high' off of huge doses of the medication. As a result, it's becoming more restricted. And, just keep aware of that. Oh, and don't ever, ever crush pills into a water solution and inject them (not that anyone should do that anyway, as it's a great way to introduce nasty infections into your body). People in Russia (who are known right now for doing many ridiculously unhealthy drugs like 'krokodil'…called so because its visible damage turns your skin into nasty scales. Yeah, things in large parts of Russia are pretty desperate, enough for people to do very destructive things...) the pill's coating doesn't actually dissolve properly, and apparently it ends up clogging up your capillaries and causing tissue death and possible actual death. Or something. Point is, please be responsible and take as directed and don't ruin this for those of us who desperately need this unique medication. It's easy: one pill, three times per day. No more will be of any help. But it's a unique and excellent antidepressant, and worth trying. Good luck (I hope it works for you) and please be responsible.
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