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Tid322

God makes me bitter not better

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1 hour ago, Tid322 said:

I have pondered the thought that God is fallible. That man had perversed the image of God through what is written in the Bible. Because Jesus and the God of the Old Testament are in contradiction. But it was under Moses that he said an eye for an eye, it was under him that the commandments were received. But directly out of Jesus’s mouth he quotes mosaic law, “you’ve heard an eye for an eye..” (sorry, I’m too lazy to look up scripture I am paraphrasing) ..”If someone slaps your right cheek, turn to him your left”.

The Bible says he was a pacifist and “a man of sorrows”. Regardless of if he was really the flesh of god, I feel like he must’ve known and endured a pain like no other on earth. Not just in his death but during his life. And I can’t help but ask why? But it’s never met with a equatable response.

It’s hard to not wag my finger at the churches because it feels hypocritical. I’m not perfect by any means, but I am also not trying to portray that I am or that I have the answers. Because I sure don’t. I guess I’m not so much bitter at them, they’re just humans trying to exist as best they can. I’m more so indifferent but I should have more sympathy. 

Yeah, the Old and New Testament Gods seem directly contradictory. That's why insofar as I'm religious at all, I tend to gravitate towards Jesus' teachings. I guess that's another contradiction that needs to be worked through, though: how Jesus directly quoted certain elements of the Mosaic law, then tore them down. I guess the whole point was that once he'd made the sacrifice he needed to make, we didn't need to follow arbitrary laws any more, but instead could focus on living good lives. (Not that it's easy. The whole turning the other cheek thing is hard, for a start, let alone everything else, but it's not as arbitrary as the rituals that Old Testament followers had to obey to be seen as good people. Also, it's way more meaningful, since it's less about ritual and more about being good people.)

I reckon Jesus was definitely 'a man of sorrows'. I mean, if you love everyone that much, how can you not be? Even when his friend turned on him and handed him over to the angry mob (Judas) he just forgave and forgot, but he must have been so sad about it. And he clearly got angry with people who abused others, but knew how to control the anger, so was mainly sad about it, I guess.

Yeah, I'm not sure I can give you a good response, besides what I've written here. I'm not a theologian, and even if I were, it would still depend on whether any of this is comforting in the context of what you believe.

I know that you're not being a hypocrite. Even though I'm not remotely a good person, I feel that I can't help but criticize the church, because they preach one thing and do another, (or just bypass it and try to back up propaganda with religious texts so that people won't criticize them.) Having said that, the congregants often are, as you see, people trying to exist the best they can. It's more the church leaders who are the problem, mostly. And while we should both probably have more sympathy for them, it can be hard at times, and I guess all we can do is keep trying.

Edited by MargotMontage

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1 hour ago, Epictetus said:

Hi Tid322,

I don't have much in the way of wisdom and in the end I think I would end up with just "paper logic" and not much insight.  I am very, very sorry you are beset by such profound difficulties.   I was a philosophy major in the university and know that so many really great minds have wrestled with the thoughts you are having.  - epictetus

Paper logic is great. Share away if you feel up to it! Facts are insightful and you never know what puzzle piece someone might have missed. I think that is so cool you majored in philosophy. It shows the kind of great mind and heart you possess. It isn’t a topic for the faint hearted. And sharing others solidarity is always appreciated. I’d love to hear whatever you’d care to share.

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1 hour ago, BeyondWeary said:

I think that besides free will, evil has been allowed to reign for a time on earth. Yet I also believe that somehow God can turn our bad experiences into something of eternal good if we trust Him. He is powerful enough and His ways are higher than our ways. In the end, I believe God will get revenge on all the evil that has happened and He will turn what was meant for evil, into something good. This life is but a dot on the timeline of eternity.  

BW

Do you believe that him turning our suffering into eternal good is why he allows the suffering? Where does this belief come from? Is there an answer for the suffering that we experience now? Also, what kind of revenge are we talking about? Is the revenge hell in your understanding? If hell is the absence of god, can we say we’re in it now since he has left us? Or does the Holy Spirit stand in restitution?  You left me with so many questions. I am intrigued. Sorry I hope I’m not bombarding you.

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1 hour ago, sober4life said:

I'm really to the point where I think this is all just random chemistry.  The whole universe is chemistry so maybe everything is just random chemistry.  How could all of this come out of nowhere.  All of what?  What is really so great about any of it?

Really, what is so great? Sorry, I really chuckled at this comment. I appreciate the laugh and honesty.

I’ve gone back and forth on the idea of creation vs evolution. I do feel like our intelligence doesn’t seem random. But who knows. We’re all randomly here. On this forum. Life seems like a series of random bull shit. Yet I still honestly do believe there is intelligence and a god. I’m just not certain why, and why us?

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49 minutes ago, MargotMontage said:

Yeah, the Old and New Testament Gods seem directly contradictory. That's why insofar as I'm religious at all, I tend to gravitate towards Jesus' teachings. I guess that's another contradiction that needs to be worked through, though: how Jesus directly quoted certain elements of the Mosaic law, then tore them down. I guess the whole point was that once he'd made the sacrifice he needed to make, we didn't need to follow arbitrary laws any more, but instead could focus on living good lives. (Not that it's easy. The whole turning the other cheek thing is hard, for a start, let alone everything else, but it's not as arbitrary as the rituals that Old Testament followers had to obey to be seen as good people. Also, it's way more meaningful, since it's less about ritual and more about being good people.)

I reckon Jesus was definitely 'a man of sorrows'. I mean, if you love everyone that much, how can you not be? Even when his friend turned on him and handed him over to the angry mob (Judas) he just forgave and forgot, but he must have been so sad about it. And he clearly got angry with people who abused others, but knew how to control the anger, so was mainly sad about it, I guess.

Yeah, I'm not sure I can give you a good response, besides what I've written here. I'm not a theologian, and even if I were, it would still depend on whether any of this is comforting in the context of what you believe.

I know that you're not being a hypocrite. Even though I'm not remotely a good person, I feel that I can't help but criticize the church, because they preach one thing and do another, (or just bypass it and try to back up propaganda with religious texts so that people won't criticize them.) Having said that, the congregants often are, as you see, people trying to exist the best they can. It's more the church leaders who are the problem, mostly. And while we should both probably have more sympathy for them, it can be hard at times, and I guess all we can do is keep trying.

I agree, sympathy is hard. It’s especially hard when they demonize others for doing nothing wrong, but go about their lives doing deplorable things by anyones standards and hiding behind the cross. And saying they’re covered by the blood. 

So in their book it’s bad for two consenting adults of the same sex to truly, deeply and completely love one another. Which affects no one but those two consenting adults but because Christians have Christ it’s okay if they molest children, rape, ****, because they have the blood or Christ. It’s so hypocritical and gross. I know most aren’t like this, but I know some that are cheating on their wives and using drugs and have beaten their children but it’s okay, god covered them. Sorry I am rambling. It’s infuriating.

I think it’s wise of you to cling to Jesus and not the church. I think that actually gives me a good perspective and a good feeling. I really like that aspect of what you’re saying. What I am getting from it and correct me if I am wrong: Don’t look at the perversed Jesus of Christianity but look at the humanitarian that loved all. Regardless of his actual status and hierarchy. 

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21 hours ago, Tid322 said:

Yet I still honestly do believe there is intelligence and a god. I’m just not certain why, and why us?

I’m so sorry that you have all these questions in your head without any answers. I’m amazed you are still trying to find the answer. Is that really an answer if god really makes us bitter cos maybe the search is at the wrong place.. Is it maybe better to just forget about the many versions of god in people’s minds and just focus on the good that we can find. I gave up on questioning god cos there are too many versions and there is not one answer and if there are, they are based on that individual’s thoughts in their own mind and his life experience, thus I don’t know if logic is really the way cos logic is also just a perception in one’s mind, ask each leader of any religion and they say their religion and belief is logical in a way.

If god is really omnipotent, god gains NOTHING from god creating humans, he gains not happiness nor appreciation nor does he gain knowledge cos he already knows everything that will happen anyway. But we gain many things from god creating humans.

I personally do not believe in this eternal war between Satan and god, maybe I do believe in a bit of free will but it’s also hard, cos I have to believe somehow that god allows things to happen if it’s good for us and we have to believe that we ourselves do not know what is good for us cos we can never see the whole big picture. There are many parents who love their children but each one show their love in different ways either through money or items or touch or words or time etc. Give too much money and the child doesn’t know how to appreciate money, give too much material items and the child becomes a spoiled brat, give too much time and the child does not know how to be independent. I guess we need to have that faith and trust that god knows just how much to give us. Faith and trust that what he takes away is good for us. 

I guess to believe in the good in god, it’s really to have simple faith and trust. There is evil and there is good. There is heaven and there is hell. To believe in the good in god is to believe he is the best of judges and each person will receive their final judgement after death, based not only on their actions but their hearts which no one but god knows. It’s not easy at all to look at the bigger picture cos one can claim to leave everything up to god, but we forgot that each person have a responsibility to society and responsibility of free will, and do we use that free will to help others around us or just let it be.

To believe in the good in god is to have faith and trust that god will stop the truck if it’s not good for us, cos god has stopped meteorites and god has created antibodies to stop virus and bacteria and he chooses who he wants to live and who he wants to die and who he wants to suffer so others can take care of that person. Faith and trust. I have found my answer but until u find a way to have faith and trust, the questions will definitely keep repeating in your head, which still do in mine once in a while cos life is never easy, so keep searching and always search in the right places.

My two cents. 

Edited by Depressedgurl007

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21 hours ago, Tid322 said:

I agree, sympathy is hard. It’s especially hard when they demonize others for doing nothing wrong, but go about their lives doing deplorable things by anyones standards and hiding behind the cross. And saying they’re covered by the blood. 

So in their book it’s bad for two consenting adults of the same sex to truly, deeply and completely love one another. Which affects no one but those two consenting adults but because Christians have Christ it’s okay if they molest children, rape, ****, because they have the blood or Christ. It’s so hypocritical and gross. I know most aren’t like this, but I know some that are cheating on their wives and using drugs and have beaten their children but it’s okay, god covered them. Sorry I am rambling. It’s infuriating.

I think it’s wise of you to cling to Jesus and not the church. I think that actually gives me a good perspective and a good feeling. I really like that aspect of what you’re saying. What I am getting from it and correct me if I am wrong: Don’t look at the perversed Jesus of Christianity but look at the humanitarian that loved all. Regardless of his actual status and hierarchy. 

Yeah, that's why I struggle to have sympathy for the church. If they're 'covered by the blood', then I think the whole point is that they wouldn't want to do these despicable things, because it would literally be making Jesus cry, and if they're 'covered by the blood', then they should love Jesus and not want to upset him. So I guess they're not so interested in being better people so much as they are in doing whatever they want because they think they have a 'get out of jail free card', so to speak. (I know I'm not a good person, by the way, so I'm not trying to be a hypocrite here, but I have never done anything unlawful and I don't feel that there's anything that gives me an excuse to do the wrong thing. i usually feel terrible if I do the wrong thing, and I don't exactly go out and ruin people's lives.)

I definitely would look at Jesus if you're trying to make sense of religion. It may help you, it may not, but I hope it does. I hope you find a way through this. And yes, avoid churches unless you feel very good about a particular church. Even then, humans are human, so if they disappoint you, try not to let it knock you. (For regular behavior, anyway. If it's something really terrible, nobody could blame you.)

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I have major philosophical issues with the church.  I have always had a strong leaning towards the US Constitution.  I do have a lot of bitterness towards god. 

I strongly disapprove of the actions of god and the Israelites (And a lot of  religions).  God demands: "Thou shalt not bear false witness."  Then turns around and orders his subjects to lie to the peoples that they are negotiating with.  If I am remembering the passage correctly he says to offer false terms and then **** every military aged male and take the women and children as slaves.  Or massacre the entire city if they do not negotiate.

God says: "Thou shalt not M*****," then turns around and has his subjects annihilate other factions. 

God demands the death penalty for abductors but that only applies if the abductees are Jews. 

etc.

I have trouble not seeing god as anything other than a bully/thug/terrorist. 

I deeply detest god's treatment of women.  I do not care if my teacher/instructor is a man or a woman.  I care whether or not they can get the course material into my thick head. 

Not all parents deserve to be honored.  An abusive parent (see Joan Crawford [Mommy Dearest] or Colonel Pat Conway [The inspiration for The Great Santini]) does not deserve to be called a father or mother. 

 

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19 hours ago, Rattler6 said:

I have major philosophical issues with the church.  I have always had a strong leaning towards the US Constitution.  I do have a lot of bitterness towards god. 

I strongly disapprove of the actions of god and the Israelites (And a lot of  religions).  God demands: "Thou shalt not bear false witness."  Then turns around and orders his subjects to lie to the peoples that they are negotiating with.  If I am remembering the passage correctly he says to offer false terms and then **** every military aged male and take the women and children as slaves.  Or massacre the entire city if they do not negotiate.

God says: "Thou shalt not M*****," then turns around and has his subjects annihilate other factions. 

God demands the death penalty for abductors but that only applies if the abductees are Jews. 

etc.

I have trouble not seeing god as anything other than a bully/thug/terrorist. 

I deeply detest god's treatment of women.  I do not care if my teacher/instructor is a man or a woman.  I care whether or not they can get the course material into my thick head. 

Not all parents deserve to be honored.  An abusive parent (see Joan Crawford [Mommy Dearest] or Colonel Pat Conway [The inspiration for The Great Santini]) does not deserve to be called a father or mother. 

 

I hear you there. I get the feeling that a lot of it was probably written by mere mortals who had an agenda, but the problem is then that when you say that, you're told you either believe or you don't, and you can't just take the positive and leave the negative for your own approach to life. (So say the people who are expert cherry pickers.)

The bits about women and parents definitely worry me. A big gripe I also have is that after Israel escaped slavery in Egypt, they had laws written about how to treat their own slaves, which makes me really mad. I mean, if you've been a slave and just escaped, you probably shouldn't be ok with enslaving others. And they were definitely slaves, not servants.

Also, (and here's another point that is probably heresy/blasphemy in the churches' opinion), Abraham and his family were pretty awful people. Seriously, don't follow their example for anything much.

But I guess that's the big promise of the New Testament for Christians who aren't ok with the church: you get to find salvation in faith and not deeds, but once you're ready for the deeds, it does actually give instructions on how to be a better person. Not, you know, about how you keep slaves. And not contradictory commands.

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This all seems to be a healthy thought process you're going through. Faith - or lack thereof - is not inherently good or evil. It's the application of either concept by people which causes problems or solutions.

You don't need to feel bad about these questions and trying to sort them out for yourself.

Peace

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On 10/11/2019 at 5:21 PM, Tid322 said:

Do you believe that him turning our suffering into eternal good is why he allows the suffering? Where does this belief come from? Is there an answer for the suffering that we experience now? Also, what kind of revenge are we talking about? Is the revenge hell in your understanding? If hell is the absence of god, can we say we’re in it now since he has left us? Or does the Holy Spirit stand in restitution?  You left me with so many questions. I am intrigued. Sorry I hope I’m not bombarding you.

I have learned a lot from suffering. It has strengthened my faith and drawn we closer to God and to seek Him out. He has shown me His faithfulness in getting me through so many hard times. “He works all things together for the good of those who love Him.” I believe that God is preparing me for my future life I heaven and He is strengthening my character. 
 

I’m not sure what kind of revenge on evil but I think hell will be a terrible place of eternal damnation that will be much worse than what is here on earth now. The Bible talks about the lake of fire with much weeping and gnashing of teeth. 
 

BW

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God loves you so much the way you are. But he loves you far too much to leave you that way. I'm not sure who's quote that was but that hit me in church one day and its helped me so much in my hard life. Life is a test and we have our agency and with that comes whatever consequences. God can't take our agency away and with that neither can he take the consequences. He weeps with us and doesn't enjoy watching us suffer in the smallest way imaginable. Even those who inherently deserve it from their actions God does not like watching them suffer. He loves us perfectly and is perfect. These are my beliefs. 

I used to think it was my grand mission in life to save everyone and watch over everyone. But now its been dawning on me over time that I need to let people save me and thats part of the purpose, in order to help yourself you need to help others and vise versa. 

 

George

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11 hours ago, George11211 said:

God loves you so much the way you are. But he loves you far too much to leave you that way. I'm not sure who's quote that was but that hit me in church one day and its helped me so much in my hard life. Life is a test and we have our agency and with that comes whatever consequences. God can't take our agency away and with that neither can he take the consequences. He weeps with us and doesn't enjoy watching us suffer in the smallest way imaginable. Even those who inherently deserve it from their actions God does not like watching them suffer. He loves us perfectly and is perfect. These are my beliefs. 

I used to think it was my grand mission in life to save everyone and watch over everyone. But now its been dawning on me over time that I need to let people save me and thats part of the purpose, in order to help yourself you need to help others and vise versa. 

 

George

Thank you, George. I'm glad you have this beautiful belief to help see you through a difficult life, and that you are also very humble and loving.

I guess the reason that this belief doesn't resonate with a lot of people is the contradictions you see for the belief in the church. The hardest people to win over with this statement would probably be ex church goers, because of the damage or trauma they may have experienced, or the hypocrisy they may have witnessed. It's certainly something you should hold on to, but sadly, it's not going to help everyone. However, if you keep trying to help others, and let them help you, then I think you could have a lot to give, even if they don't accept or believe in the same thing as you.

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1 hour ago, MargotMontage said:

I guess the reason that this belief doesn't resonate with a lot of people is the contradictions you see for the belief in the church. The hardest people to win over with this statement would probably be ex church goers, because of the damage or trauma they may have experienced, or the hypocrisy they may have witnessed. It's certainly something you should hold on to, but sadly, it's not going to help everyone. 

How else can we help everyone then. Nothing much can be done if people can’t appreciate the love that god has sent down to them. People forget that the church is still managed by a human, who is definitely not god. People forget that the pastor is a human, who is definitely not god.

Searching for god’s love does not have to be in a church and it’s sad that god is represented by the church when he is all around us, in nature and the food he provide and the air he gives for us to breathe, and even in our own bodies it can be seen in how he created us in full form with no missing limbs. People criticise but don’t appreciate cos they don’t understand how god works cos of how people mislead other people. Hypocrisy, damage and trauma caused by certain people in certain churches is a reminder that the church and any religious places are managed by humans, and is definitely a painful reminder that humans are destructive creatures. Maybe some rationalisation, philosophical thinking and gratitude is required in people’s search for god.

We live in a broken world. Humans hurt humans and think only of themselves. Humans don’t help others if their own lives and needs will be sacrificed. Humans create societies but do not care for the society created. Humans create laws but do not abide by them. Humans love whom they choose and hate whom they choose as dictated by their feelings and emotions. Is it possible to know god without going to church? Not really. But is it possible to remember that not one church is representative of god? That is one thing people forget. We are humans and I just hope that people keep searching for god no matter how badly humans treat them. But if they chose not to, no one can be blamed but humans and societies.

Edited by Depressedgurl007
Sorry I think I rambled too much. Just need to clear my mind. No offence to anyone XD

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14 hours ago, Depressedgurl007 said:

How else can we help everyone then. Nothing much can be done if people can’t appreciate the love that god has sent down to them. People forget that the church is still managed by a human, who is definitely not god. People forget that the pastor is a human, who is definitely not god.

Searching for god’s love does not have to be in a church and it’s sad that god is represented by the church when he is all around us, in nature and the food he provide and the air he gives for us to breathe, and even in our own bodies it can be seen in how he created us in full form with no missing limbs. People criticise but don’t appreciate cos they don’t understand how god works cos of how people mislead other people. Hypocrisy, damage and trauma caused by certain people in certain churches is a reminder that the church and any religious places are managed by humans, and is definitely a painful reminder that humans are destructive creatures. Maybe some rationalisation, philosophical thinking and gratitude is required in people’s search for god.

We live in a broken world. Humans hurt humans and think only of themselves. Humans don’t help others if their own lives and needs will be sacrificed. Humans create societies but do not care for the society created. Humans create laws but do not abide by them. Humans love whom they choose and hate whom they choose as dictated by their feelings and emotions. Is it possible to know god without going to church? Not really. But is it possible to remember that not one church is representative of god? That is one thing people forget. We are humans and I just hope that people keep searching for god no matter how badly humans treat them. But if they chose not to, no one can be blamed but humans and societies.

Hi Depressedgurl007!

Well, I don't think that you shouldn't share a message of love and hope. If you want to do that, and there are people who will benefit from hearing it, then you should and can! There's no good reason not to. I guess the problem is when going about it, some people won't be receptive, and it's important to acknowledge why, and treat it the right way. It is my experience that people who never had much of a faith before are more likely to convert to a religion, (and in particular Christianity,) because unless they're firm atheists, they're more likely to listen if you say that human failings don't define the church. When a believer has left the church because they know that human failings are a massive feature of the church, it's harder to pull them back in, and the only way they're going to feel love is if those around them give them space and respect. However, if you meet a person in this situation, that doesn't mean you can't tell them what you believe, or about your message of love and hope.

 

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