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Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD) Thread

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I haven't really found any thread here specifically dedicated to Borderline Personality Disorder, so I'm posting this hear.* 
*I've noted a few one-offs below.

It seems like with some increasing attention and use of DBT therapy and diagnostic definition for BPD, this variant of mental illness has gradually come to the fore a bit.

I worked with a good professional therapist a few years ago, and it seemed like I met most of the criterion, but she concluded I was merely on the spectrum, but not really BPD.  I don't want to think I am, but then again, it would explain why my working diagnosis (MDD, Anxiety and bipolar II) have NEVER responded to any medication, at all.  And therapy too has been mostly a non-factor....though I at least look forward to temporary/momentary catharsis when I speak with someone who's good.

DBT therapy (and its close cousin CBT) is hard work, and I (like I think most depressives) find it difficult to maintain consistency without a structured environment, namely individual and group therapy to hold accountable even simple things like homework worksheets and identifying progress, etc.

Anyhow, my therapist thinks this is advisable for me to explore further and probably pursue as a working theory at least - since it seems I meet many, even if perhaps not most or all.  

If (as it appears), there is not a dedicated thread to Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD), I hope an admin can either start one ( @Tungsten Aromatics? could you assist here?); otherwise, I offer this thread.

To start, my understanding is that BPD underwent a substantial restructuring of definition from the DSM 4 to DSM 5.

Here is DSM 4's rendition.  The "5 or more" bit is why I tend to think (against strong desire against it) this describes me:

DSM 4 Borderline Personality Disorder:

A pervasive pattern of instability of interpersonal relationships, self-image, and affects, and marked impulsivity beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:

(1) frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment. Note: Do not include suicidal or self-mutilating behavior covered in Criterion 5.

(2) a pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships characterized by alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation

(3) identity disturbance: markedly and persistently unstable self image or sense of self

(4) impulsivity in at least two areas that are potentially self-damaging (e.g., spending, sex, substance abuse, reckless driving, binge eating). Note: Do not include suicidal or self-mutilating behavior covered in Criterion 5.

(5) recurrent suicidal behavior, gestures, or threats, or self-mutilating behavior

(6) affective instability due to a marked reactivity of mood (e.g., intense episodic dysphoria, irritability, or anxiety usually lasting a few hours and only rarely more than a few days)

(7) chronic feelings of emptiness

(8) inappropriate, intense anger or difficulty controlling anger (e.g., frequent displays of temper, constant anger, recurrent physical fights)

(9) transient, stress-related paranoid ideation or severe dissociative symptoms

 

And here is DSM 5's re-definition:

DSM 5 Borderline Personality Disorder

The essential features of a personality disorder are impairments in personality (self and interpersonal) functioning and the presence of pathological personality traits. To diagnose borderline personality disorder, the following criteria must be met:

A. Significant impairments in personality functioning manifest by:

1. Impairments in self functioning (a or b):

a. Identity: Markedly impoverished, poorly developed, or unstable self-image, often associated with excessive self-criticism; chronic feelings of emptiness; dissociative states under stress.

b. Self-direction: Instability in goals, aspirations, values, or career plans.

AND

2. Impairments in interpersonal functioning (a or b):

a. Empathy: Compromised ability to recognize the feelings and needs of others associated with interpersonal hypersensitivity (i.e., prone to feel slighted or insulted); perceptions of others selectively biased toward negative attributes or vulnerabilities.

b. Intimacy: Intense, unstable, and conflicted close relationships, marked by mistrust, neediness, and anxious preoccupation with real or imagined abandonment; close relationships often viewed in extremes of idealization and devaluation and alternating between over involvement and withdrawal.

  • APA Rationale for Revised A Criteria for Personality Disorders and the Levels of Personality Functioning
  • Levels of Personality Functioning

 

B. Pathological personality traits in the following domains:

1. Negative Affectivity, characterized by:

a. Emotional lability: Unstable emotional experiences and frequent mood changes; emotions that are easily aroused, intense, and/or out of proportion to events and circumstances.

b. Anxiousness: Intense feelings of nervousness, tenseness, or panic, often in reaction to interpersonal stresses; worry about the negative effects of past unpleasant experiences and future negative possibilities; feeling fearful, apprehensive, or threatened by uncertainty; fears of falling apart or losing control.

c. Separation insecurity: Fears of rejection by - and/or separation from - significant others, associated with fears of excessive dependency and complete loss of autonomy.

d. Depressivity: Frequent feelings of being down, miserable, and/or hopeless; difficulty recovering from such moods; pessimism about the future; pervasive shame; feeling of inferior self-worth; thoughts of suicide and suicidal behavior.

2. Disinhibition, characterized by:

a. Impulsivity: Acting on the spur of the moment in response to immediate stimuli; acting on a momentary basis without a plan or consideration of outcomes; difficulty establishing or following plans; a sense of urgency and self-harming behavior under emotional distress.

b. Risk taking: Engagement in dangerous, risky, and potentially self-damaging activities, unnecessarily and without regard to consequences; lack of concern for one's limitations and denial of the reality of personal danger.

 3. Antagonism, characterized by:

a. Hostility: Persistent or frequent angry feelings; anger or irritability in response to minor slights and insults.

  • APA Rationale for Criteria B and the Proposed Trait System

C. The impairments in personality functioning and the individual's personality trait expression are relatively stable across time and consistent across situations.

D. The impairments in personality functioning and the individual's personality trait expression are not better understood as normative for the individual's developmental stage or socio-cultural environment.

E. The impairments in personality functioning and the individual's personality trait expression are not solely due to the direct physiological effects of a substance (e.g., a drug of abuse, medication) or a general medical condition (e.g., severe head trauma).

Clear as mud?

 

@anxiousE has written about BPD here:  

@Meg13, here:  

 

I've written a little about it, but could only find this now:  

 

 

 

Edited by gandolfication
because

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A separate thread is a great idea!

There's a lot of overlap between BPD and other mental health issues and yet it brings some additional challenges that are somewhat unique to it. The fact that it's a personality disorder makes it incredibly challenging to treat since there's little to no response to medication. The near lack of impulse control and the inability to form healthy interpersonal relationships can make it exceedingly hard to deal with and often leads to BPD being completely vilified by society at large. 

 

Edited by lonelyforeigner

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23 minutes ago, lonelyforeigner said:

A separate thread is a great idea!

There's a lot of overlap between BPD and other mental health issues and yet it brings some additional challenges that are somewhat unique to it. The fact that it's a personality disorder makes it incredibly challenging to treat since there's little to no response to medication. The near lack of impulse control and the inability to form healthy interpersonal relationships can make it exceedingly hard to deal with and often leads to BPD being completely vilified by society at large. 

 

Yes, that makes sense.  And yet still, I recall watching youtube videos about people improving greatly with DBT and a lot of help.

Certainly also, there is a continuum even within BPD sufferers.  

I noted again that the diagnosticians suggest that most cases at least develop either in childhood or early adulthood...which I don't seem to fit, even if this is circumstantial.  I guess a simple answer is that, too bad, people develop stuff.

I want to identify out, because in many ways, I (like many here) am highly functional in many ways and roles, albeit I have deteriorated in recent years.

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True, I've also heard that people can improve a lot with DBT. The challenge obviously being that most can't afford the level of care they need, reprogramming our thought patterns takes a LOT of time so the limited number of therapy sessions most insurance plans offers are nowhere near enough to make much of a difference.

Yeah it's not always developed in childhood or early adulthood, my symptoms became much more pronounced in my mid to late twenties. I definitely had issues as a teenager but probably wouldn't have met the diagnostic criteria. Like you mentioned there IS a continuum, some people can't function at all and others such as us function most of the time with occasional periods when things deteriorate.

I often wonder how under-diagnosed BPD is, I would venture to say that most people who suffer from it go unnoticed, they'll be written off as jerks, trouble-makers, moody, immature... I've even heard some speculate that there isn't a huge gender divide like many doctors think, it's just that many guys suffering from BPD will end up in the prison system since testosterone can make us act out worse than women. 

Edited by lonelyforeigner

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47 minutes ago, gandolfication said:

To start, my understanding is that BPD underwent a substantial restructuring of definition from the DSM 4 to DSM 5.

I think there's been a big shift in knowledge about BPD, probably thanks to people like Marsha Linehan (?) but this change of understanding/ approach has NOT yet reached a larger audience.

Most people (including heaps of doctors and therapists) still think of BPD the way it was generally thought of 20 years ago.

Along the lines of "BPD is basically untreatable" and "people with BPD are hyper-extreme and pretty scary" and "BPD cannot be understood" and "BPD is incredibly negative".

Ten or twenty years ago BPD seemed to be a kind of "waste paper bin" where if you couldn't work out what a patient had and the patient was really negative, then by excluding all other diagnoses, they "must" have BPD.

This went so far that therapists and doctors who didn't LIKE a patient they were treating, or a patient who didn't respond to their therapy as hoped would be given a BPD label as a kind of punishment for being a "bad patient".

I remember researching BPD 10 or so years ago, when I was trying to work out what was going on with me (PTSD, suicidalness, panic disorder) and I was HORRIFIED by the descriptions of BPD. The focus was all on reckless sexual intercourse, reckless drug and alcohol use and physically harming yourself. I did not identify with that at all!

I started researching the topic again when my ex started displaying really intense/ weird/ emotionally extreme behaviours and while I still had to wade through a lot of BPD information that was as negative as what I've described above, I also found that there's a slight, subtle shift going on in some areas of the mental health profession. There's some much more enlightened, positive, encouraging, compassionate understanding of BPD ***in those circles*** nowadays.

This news has yet to reach the wider medical and mental health profession tho, as well as society at large.

From what I know of you @gandolfication I don't think you sound like a classic BPD case - tho regarding my ex I've learned there is a "quiet/ inward subtype" of BPD which @lonelyforeigner has been kind enough to explain to me in detail - and the quiet subtype presents very differently to the normal BPD type, so this may be worth looking into if you feel like the standard BPD shoe doesn't fit...

Having said that, my unprofessional and internet guesstimate would be that you have some BPD traits and hence are on the BPD spectrum, but that this ain't your main bone to chew.

(This is actually also how I would describe myself too - a couple of BPD traits that would profit from a BPD approach.)

I like your description of struggling with the tight-knit intensity of a DBT / CBT course as I have to gigglingly admit that that approach would drive me bonkers too. I am someone who needs a certain degree of freedom - give me any tight schedule or try and micro-manage me and I will get anxious and then angry.

(Probably more BPD symptoms - who knows!! Haha)

I'm sure that there are things that can be done to address BPD *traits* that don't need that level of intensity tho.

I think for people with full-blown BPD, the intensity of DBT is required to mirror/ combat the intensity of the BPD.

I've got a pile of books on BPD at home - a ton of reading to try and understand my BPD ex - and eventually I became really interested in the subject, cos it's actually a truly fascinating disorder!

Given that you have an intellectual approach, that's probably where I would recommend starting - reading up on the subject and getting a deeper understanding of it, so you can get a sense of which BPD traits are the ones that are affecting you most.

I think once you've developed this understanding, you'll probably also have a better sense of which kinds of therapy/ which bits of those therapies will be particularly helpful for you.

I'm fascinated by BPD, so I'd be glad to explore any ideas/ approaches/ etc you come up with, if you like.

I think by understanding BPD, we certainly understand the human brain/ psyche as such better, which is always a cool thing!

 

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@gandolfication Let me know if you want me to trawl through my Amazon order list to put together a kind of recommended reading list for BPD, if you want a list of titles to pick from...  : )

I was pretty careful to dodge the crappy books and to pick the best/ most insightful/ most compassionate/ most interesting books available on the subject (I hope!)

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Oh yeah, and if you want to do yourself a favour re *understanding* BPD, try to steer clear of those 90% horror stories about it.

Yes, to some degree those *descriptions of behaviour* are true, but there is absolutely no compassionate and smart attempt to understand where the behaviour comes from and what would help alleviate it.

So the information that focusses on the monstrous behaviour and which works with the assumption that it must be due to a monstrous personality - try and steer clear of it. It will not only not help your understanding, but it will cloud your understanding and prejudice you against BPD as something deeply negative.

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36 minutes ago, Sophy said:

I think there's been a big shift in knowledge about BPD, probably thanks to people like Marsha Linehan (?) but this change of understanding/ approach has NOT yet reached a larger audience.

Most people (including heaps of doctors and therapists) still think of BPD the way it was generally thought of 20 years ago.

Along the lines of "BPD is basically untreatable" and "people with BPD are hyper-extreme and pretty scary" and "BPD cannot be understood" and "BPD is incredibly negative".

Ten or twenty years ago BPD seemed to be a kind of "waste paper bin" where if you couldn't work out what a patient had and the patient was really negative, then by excluding all other diagnoses, they "must" have BPD.

This went so far that therapists and doctors who didn't LIKE a patient they were treating, or a patient who didn't respond to their therapy as hoped would be given a BPD label as a kind of punishment for being a "bad patient".

I remember researching BPD 10 or so years ago, when I was trying to work out what was going on with me (PTSD, suicidalness, panic disorder) and I was HORRIFIED by the descriptions of BPD. The focus was all on reckless sexual intercourse, reckless drug and alcohol use and physically harming yourself. I did not identify with that at all!

I started researching the topic again when my ex started displaying really intense/ weird/ emotionally extreme behaviours and while I still had to wade through a lot of BPD information that was as negative as what I've described above, I also found that there's a slight, subtle shift going on in some areas of the mental health profession. There's some much more enlightened, positive, encouraging, compassionate understanding of BPD ***in those circles*** nowadays.

This news has yet to reach the wider medical and mental health profession tho, as well as society at large.

From what I know of you @gandolfication I don't think you sound like a classic BPD case - tho regarding my ex I've learned there is a "quiet/ inward subtype" of BPD which @lonelyforeigner has been kind enough to explain to me in detail - and the quiet subtype presents very differently to the normal BPD type, so this may be worth looking into if you feel like the standard BPD shoe doesn't fit...

Having said that, my unprofessional and internet guesstimate would be that you have some BPD traits and hence are on the BPD spectrum, but that this ain't your main bone to chew.

(This is actually also how I would describe myself too - a couple of BPD traits that would profit from a BPD approach.)

I like your description of struggling with the tight-knit intensity of a DBT / CBT course as I have to gigglingly admit that that approach would drive me bonkers too. I am someone who needs a certain degree of freedom - give me any tight schedule or try and micro-manage me and I will get anxious and then angry.

(Probably more BPD symptoms - who knows!! Haha)

I'm sure that there are things that can be done to address BPD *traits* that don't need that level of intensity tho.

I think for people with full-blown BPD, the intensity of DBT is required to mirror/ combat the intensity of the BPD.

I've got a pile of books on BPD at home - a ton of reading to try and understand my BPD ex - and eventually I became really interested in the subject, cos it's actually a truly fascinating disorder!

Given that you have an intellectual approach, that's probably where I would recommend starting - reading up on the subject and getting a deeper understanding of it, so you can get a sense of which BPD traits are the ones that are affecting you most.

I think once you've developed this understanding, you'll probably also have a better sense of which kinds of therapy/ which bits of those therapies will be particularly helpful for you.

I'm fascinated by BPD, so I'd be glad to explore any ideas/ approaches/ etc you come up with, if you like.

I think by understanding BPD, we certainly understand the human brain/ psyche as such better, which is always a cool thing!

 

@Sophy

You're too smart.

The background history of BPD is illuminating.  

I also do not exhibit any of reckless sexual intercourse, reckless drug and alcohol use and physically harming yourself...don't get me wrong, I might like a little of the first two.

"a "quiet/ inward subtype" of BPD which @lonelyforeigner has been kind enough to explain to me in detail - and the quiet subtype presents very differently to the normal BPD type, so this may be worth looking into if you feel like the standard BPD shoe doesn't fit..."

Well, I at least like this better....'cuz I don't want to think of or believe myself to be antisocial (which is my shorthand for how the more overt, pronounced BPD cases are perceived).  I just don't see myself as being so wholly dislocated from self-control, volatile, or disconnected from reality. *

That I likely "have some BPD traits and hence are on the BPD spectrum," I very much tend to agree (much against interest and desire), and this was essentially my previous DBT therapist's assessment.  I wonder if (I assume) there is some assessment for diagnosing BPD.

If and when I resume DBT or work focused more on these traits, I'll gladly take you up on picking your brain on the subject...I would look forward to the intellectually interesting nature of it.  Short of that, I confess, of all the variously interesting and useful things we've discussed to read/examine, BPD isn't otherwise high on the list. 😕

 

 

*(I do note that mere competence or high functioning (however unevenly) does not exclude someone from a disorder...to  wit, there is very strong evidence for the fact that the higher you go in an org-chart, you find that many CEO's meet many or most of the criterion for socio or psycho-pathology, but I digress). 

 

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38 minutes ago, Sophy said:

@gandolfication Let me know if you want me to trawl through my Amazon order list to put together a kind of recommended reading list for BPD, if you want a list of titles to pick from...  : )

I was pretty careful to dodge the crappy books and to pick the best/ most insightful/ most compassionate/ most interesting books available on the subject (I hope!)

Cool, I will return to this if and as soon as I go further down this route.

I have one DBT workbook by Marsha Linehan.  

Not that I don't think reading up on BPD wouldn't be a) very interesting, and even b) at some point helpful, I'm going to try to lead with a therapist first...in part because I am unlikely to be able to very much "help myself" by reading or even doing exercises...though I also don't remove my responsibility from these things.

Thanks!

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34 minutes ago, Sophy said:

Oh yeah, and if you want to do yourself a favour re *understanding* BPD, try to steer clear of those 90% horror stories about it.

Yes, to some degree those *descriptions of behaviour* are true, but there is absolutely no compassionate and smart attempt to understand where the behaviour comes from and what would help alleviate it.

So the information that focusses on the monstrous behaviour and which works with the assumption that it must be due to a monstrous personality - try and steer clear of it. It will not only not help your understanding, but it will cloud your understanding and prejudice you against BPD as something deeply negative.

Thank you.

I will.  I will keep that in mind.

And yah, that's the other thing...I am pretty confident I just don't and really never have exhibited much of this kind of "monstrous" behavior in almost any context.

My wife might object and say that I am often cold-acting, failing to apply empathy, and my up and down manner, including emotional lability and often difficulty controlling my temper.  When I get really stressed or frustrated, at some points I yell...and of course I do this only to those who I love and am closest to.  It has worsened with time, stress etc.

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1 hour ago, lonelyforeigner said:

True, I've also heard that people can improve a lot with DBT. The challenge obviously being that most can't afford the level of care they need, reprogramming our thought patterns takes a LOT of time so the limited number of therapy sessions most insurance plans offers are nowhere near enough to make much of a difference.

Yeah it's not always developed in childhood or early adulthood, my symptoms became much more pronounced in my mid to late twenties. I definitely had issues as a teenager but probably wouldn't have met the diagnostic criteria. Like you mentioned there IS a continuum, some people can't function at all and others such as us function most of the time with occasional periods when things deteriorate.

I often wonder how under-diagnosed BPD is, I would venture to say that most people who suffer from it go unnoticed, they'll be written off as jerks, trouble-makers, moody, immature... I've even heard some speculate that there isn't a huge gender divide like many doctors think, it's just that many guys suffering from BPD will end up in the prison system since testosterone can make us act out worse than women. 

You're right about cost, time and availability.  It's tough and hard to find, let alone afford....though my therapist is making some inquiries.

"Like you mentioned there IS a continuum, some people can't function at all and others such as us function most of the time with occasional periods when things deteriorate."

This makes sense and is simultaneously comforting and disquieting...if not already obvious, this does scare me.

The gender disparity makes sense.

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One thing that makes me think you don't have full-blown BPD is that you are very insightful about yourself and you are courageous in facing your issues and you don't mind sharing them.

I don't think most people with full-blown BPD are that self-aware or that willing to analyse their behaviour or to let other people close enough to share in the analysis.

If you had full-blown BPD, that kind of stuff would have you on a massive emotional rollercoaster and you'd be all over the place, seeking closeness then avoiding it then seeking it and avoiding it again.

You'd be massively triggered by a lot of topics and wouldn't be able to face them in any consistent way.

I think you have a really big emotional repertoire and you're good at healthy interactions - this all speaks against BPD in any major way.

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@Sophy, you make an excellent point! People on the extreme end of the spectrum completely lack self-awareness, many tend to blame outside factors for all their issues and would NEVER think about analyzing their own behavior. Being self-aware is the most important step in learning to manage BPD (or BPD traits), it allows you to develop coping strategies and avoid triggers. Obviously this isn't always successful but it allows for normal functioning 90% of the time. 

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2 minutes ago, Sophy said:

One thing that makes me think you don't have full-blown BPD is that you are very insightful about yourself and you are courageous in facing your issues and you don't mind sharing them.

I don't think most people with full-blown BPD are that self-aware or that willing to analyse their behaviour or to let other people close enough to share in the analysis.

If you had full-blown BPD, that kind of stuff would have you on a massive emotional rollercoaster and you'd be all over the place, seeking closeness then avoiding it then seeking it and avoiding it again.

You'd be massively triggered by a lot of topics and wouldn't be able to face them in any consistent way.

I think you have a really big emotional repertoire and you're good at healthy interactions - this all speaks against BPD in any major way.

Hmm...that makes sense.

I think I'm content to believe I tend toward and have some of the markers.  And yah I don't think I exhibit the wild swings in closeness (fear of abandonment) vs avoidance, or inability to form and maintain quality relationships--even if my relationships are not entirely healthy and have disfunction in them.

On the continuum.  

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3 minutes ago, lonelyforeigner said:

@Sophy, you make an excellent point! People on the extreme end of the spectrum completely lack self-awareness, many tend to blame outside factors for all their issues and would NEVER think about analyzing their own behavior. Being self-aware is the most important step in learning to manage BPD (or BPD traits), it allows you to develop coping strategies and avoid triggers. Obviously this isn't always successful but it allows for normal functioning 90% of the time. 

Hm, I did not know that.  

I've always tended to be quite introspective and try to self examine, etc.

Of course it could be merely another level of self-deception....I could be a small child living in a padded room, projecting a false reality....

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Yeah, *as I understand* BPD it's got to do with such a fundamental lack of self-esteem and such a fundamental lack of sense-of-self that anything "negative" about the self (like critically analysing one's own behaviour) is considered an impossible task.

It's like ppl with full-blown BPD have this tiny 0.00000001 % of self-esteem and sense-of-self left and they must cling to it to SURVIVE.

So ANYTHING that threatens that sends them spiralling (subconsciously, not consciously) to protect that last remaining tiniest of specks of self-worth.

IMO you do not display that at all. You are so able to critically self-analyse and you feel comfortable doing so. You feel comfortable questioning yourself. You feel comfortable exploring topic/ ideas that are in a sense of contrast/ dissonance to your own core beliefs... That's basic emotional courage.

And if you had major BPD that just wouldn't be possible. You'd INSTINCTIVELY protect yourself massively, because if you didn't you'd self-destruct.

And that massive self-protection would be visible to others.

I've known you long enough now and seen you under some extreme emotional pressure and you've faced it with amazing courage, so I can rule out the kind of BPD self-protective behaviour described above.

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1 minute ago, gandolfication said:

Hm, I did not know that.  

I've always tended to be quite introspective and try to self examine, etc.

Of course it could be merely another level of self-deception....I could be a small child living in a padded room, projecting a false reality....

Hahaha, yeah    OR   you could be Neo hooked up to a machine making him THINK he's a small child living in a padded room...

YOU NEVER KNOW   : )

LOL

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Just now, Sophy said:

Yeah, *as I understand* BPD it's got to do with such a fundamental lack of self-esteem and such a fundamental lack of sense-of-self that anything "negative" about the self (like critically analysing one's own behaviour) is considered an impossible task.

It's like ppl with full-blown BPD have this tiny 0.00000001 % of self-esteem and sense-of-self left and they must cling to it to SURVIVE.

So ANYTHING that threatens that sends them spiralling (subconsciously, not consciously) to protect that last remaining tiniest of specks of self-worth.

IMO you do not display that at all. You are so able to critically self-analyse and you feel comfortable doing so. You feel comfortable questioning yourself. You feel comfortable exploring topic/ ideas that are in a sense of contrast/ dissonance to your own core beliefs... That's basic emotional courage.

And if you had major BPD that just wouldn't be possible. You'd INSTINCTIVELY protect yourself massively, because if you didn't you'd self-destruct.

And that massive self-protection would be visible to others.

I've known you long enough now and seen you under some extreme emotional pressure and you've faced it with amazing courage, so I can rule out the kind of BPD self-protective behaviour described above.

Ok, yah, I am highly self-critical and don't have an overall healthy self esteem, but I do not think it is anything like that...I still maintain many things I like about myself and am even confident about...probably too much so : )

I do in general feel very comfortable self-examining, criticizing and indeed admitting a whole lotta fault.  Sometimes, this is almost to and maybe to a fault itself, perhaps even kind of a defense mechanism....like yah, I know I have a sh*tton of flaws, so gimmie a break already....and that's not entirely healthy.

A routine point of argument between my wife and I is that a) I continue to do make the same mistakes, albeit I easily admit it, apologize for it, and at least strive to improve; whereas b) she arguably at least and probably actually does not have the same number or magnitude of faults (indeed, she is very selfless in many important ways), but at the same time, she has difficulty recognizing and voicing/admitting to faults even that she does have - it is very hard for her, perhaps because her mother was harsh and critical (still is).

Well, thank you both.

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5 minutes ago, Sophy said:

Hahaha, yeah    OR   you could be Neo hooked up to a machine making him THINK he's a small child living in a padded room...

YOU NEVER KNOW   : )

LOL

It's funny, I was chatting with @JD4010 about this once-obscure school of theistic debate called presuppositional apologetics, and something called The Great Debate: Does God Exist (fantastic on YouTube btw), and I watched a contemporary extension of this (truly) Great Debate...and as always they're debating solipsism and the Matrix-brain-in-the-vat problem.

Side note: the first Matrix, what a great work of art.

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1 hour ago, sober4life said:

Every single thing on both lists is me.  I must really be in bad shape. I know big shock.

Sober,

Based in my recollection of past conversations and your posts, that is somewhat hard for me to believe.

I didn't want to argue with you, but still hard to believe.

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9 minutes ago, Asta said:

For me, my self-esteem and sense of self have a lot to do with other people. When I'm alone my self-esteem is fine, other people can make me feel worthless or better about my self.  I used to change my personality and every other thing about me to make people like me more.  People really seem to like impulsive people more, that's pretty much why I became impulsive in the first place. 

I guess the self-protection would be in the forum of devaluing people. 

The first part of you pay seems pretty normal... It also usually decreases with age.

Re "People really seem to like impulsive people more, that's pretty much why I became impulsive in the first place."

that's interesting I would have said and thought the opposite that people tend to like others who seem calm composed, poised, sure of themselves, consistent etcetera.

spontaneous?  Yah, but self possessed.

Anyhow anyhow, impulsivity goes with an awful lot of these disorders.

 

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9 hours ago, Asta said:

For me, my self-esteem and sense of self have a lot to do with other people. When I'm alone my self-esteem is fine, other people can make me feel worthless or better about my self.  I used to change my personality and every other thing about me to make people like me more.  People really seem to like impulsive people more, that's pretty much why I became impulsive in the first place. 

I guess the self-protection would be in the forum of devaluing people. 

Other people are the reason for my low or high self esteem every time.  No matter what I achieve in life if the people around me don't like me I feel like a failure.  It's been a lifetime of me feeling like Bigfoot or some stray dog.  I always feel beneath most people.  I'm constantly trying to change myself to fit in and constantly begging for attention.  

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