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15 hours ago, virvellian said:

I agree that there should be a separate forum for the relation between work and depression. I think most of the problems in this society are caused by capitalism. Imagine how happier you would be if you didn't have to worry about earning enough money to feed yourself or pay the bills; affording healthcare or education; being unemployed and unable to find a job; working a job that makes you miserable or doesn't pay a living wage. All of these things cause enormous stress which spills over to our relationships and private life. All of it could be easily fixed. The human civilization has enough resources and technology right now to enable everyone a comfortable life, working just 15-hour a week but because the wealth is so unevenly distributed (in America, wealth inequality is reaching the levels of the Gilded Age) most people suffer trying to make ends meet while the few mega-rich accumulate more wealth than they could spend in a thousand lifetimes. It's sickening.

When you put it like that, I agree with you.

Is just so good to hear someone else say, "I think most of the problems in this society are caused by capitalism."

i believe this at least to the extent that the current form and extent to which capitalism has gotten is absolutely corrosive and damaging for most people.

I was thinking it's not 'easy,' at least not from the standpoint and theory that capitalist risk/reward competition has made bigger pies for all, and lifted 10s or 100s of millions out of squalid poverty, which while possibly overstated is true.

What if we were able to achieve just the change of helping people work in the field and job type they really wanted and were best suited for, and to allow more flexibility in work hours, even say 30 or 40 (because let's be honest, as of 10+ years ago, a full-time salaried job in America, meant 50 hours, then 60 hours and often more).  It means working from home, on holidays, while on vacation, etc. Etc.

People come here lady say oh that's a utopian Nirvana, and move on, to me are asleep.  This system of economics is horrid by almost any half-sensible measure.  If we aren't light years beyond this in a few decades let alone a few centuries of human development, it is unthinkable.

People lack imagination for this sort of thing.  They think that because no one has done it yet, it can't be done.

It's enough to make me wish I was an economist, or policymaker.

Edited by gandolfication
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5 hours ago, JD4010 said:

OK, I'm still hanging by (this) thread. Hahaha.

I agree with @virvellian...we are expected to run ever faster on the hamster wheel in order to merely survive. Most of us are no different from the "serfs" we read about in history. I consider myself to be a wage slave and just thinking about losing "health care" coverage sends my anxiety through the roof. Our deductibles keep going up, as does the cost of clinic visits.

Anyway...work is far and away the number one cause of stress for me, and I'm losing ground to the ever-increasing costs-of-living.

Like.

Where's the like button?!

🤔

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On 3/13/2018 at 2:02 PM, Bebop said:

I would find this useful, too. I don't know what members here could offer in terms of solutions, but even to have honest conversations on it would be a relief.

I left a career because it was isolating and had poor work-life balance that worsened my depression. Now I'm so lost in the sea of "do what you're passionate about" advice. I'm not passionate about anything to the point where I want to pursue it as my One Big Life Goal.

Interesting post.  I can relate.

I have a number of things I still love, am passionate and interested in....just have never found a way (yet) to monetize them.

Isn't that a skeevy capitalist term, 'monetize'?

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11 hours ago, gandolfication said:

Interesting post.  I can relate.

I have a number of things I still love, am passionate and interested in....just have never found a way (yet) to monetize them.

Isn't that a skeevy capitalist term, 'monetize'?

Yep. It is a skeevy term in my mind, too.

Love writing short stories? Maybe I'm meant to be a professional author working under tight deadlines and networking myself half to death to get my name out there, studying audiences and marketing my work for them.

Ugh.

Somehow the idea of a passion sucks the fun out of everything and puts so much more pressure on me.

 

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My step-daughter has a small food business (farmer's  markets, supply coffee shops, etc). She can't grow because she can't find new hires (she has a few employees now) Granted it's part time and early morning hours. She pays above minimum wage. She's posted job ads many times, including specialty sites for food services. She expects good work of course, but I believe she treats employees with respect and has been accommodating when employees have had personal issues. She's in a large city.

Not trying to hi-jack this thread. she just texted me that a person due to start today *just* texted her that they had decided not to take the job!!!  Shame we can't get the right employer-employee matches. I just feel for her. 

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16 hours ago, Bebop said:

Yep. It is a skeevy term in my mind, too.

Love writing short stories? Maybe I'm meant to be a professional author working under tight deadlines and networking myself half to death to get my name out there, studying audiences and marketing my work for them.

Ugh.

Somehow the idea of a passion sucks the fun out of everything and puts so much more pressure on me.

 

Your description of pursuing a professional writing career there is interesting.  I hadn't ever reduced it so much to those terms, but presumably you're right.

Scott Adams, the creator of Dilbert, which I loved in my younger years and do think he is a brilliant satirist and occasionally writer of other things (alas, enough is enough), has a couple mind-f*#king articles out there about his view that people should not follow their passions. That this is a recipe for emotion-laden bad judgment.  That instead, people should try as many things as possible and see what they're good at, what they like (so he allows for some passion/enjoyment naturally), develop systems, rather than goals (a topic unto itself I've occasionally written about), and essentially trial and error their way through life and work.  I think that's a bit easy for him to say given the career he's enjoyed, but I find myself often being persuaded to agree with his conclusions.

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On 3/12/2018 at 3:40 PM, LonelyHiker said:

I am very sorry to hear this, gandolf, but it sounds like it was a s.h.i.t.t.y company and situation, and as cliched as it sounds, when one door closes, another one usually opens. 

You'll find something else, something much better!

Thx

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14 hours ago, Misanthrop said:

Only choose to work if you do not have financial support from elsewhere.

And do you know why disability assistance exists? Let me re-iteriate: working is ONLY for highly-functioning, high-achievers; people who thrive well under pressure. Not something suitable for mental illness sufferers.

Maybe I should simply pursue disability, and then seek to do something on the side like writing for money, which I'd actually enjoy.

I gained a Schedule A disability determination for federal job purposes, maybe it would not be too much further or time to get disability in general.  I have never wanted to go this route, as it is (for me at least) an acknowledgement of giving up, and also to rendering my family to a level or quality of life that seems extremely poor.

So is my thinking so far and today anyway,  I'd be obliged if you'd enlighten me either here or in a PM if you think this is a fair way of thinking about it, and to discussing in a bit more detail.  

I may need it in any case, as the evidence of 10 years now, does strongly suggest that I am unable to function at least in these types of corporate jobs - and god, how I do not want to!

I guess I've maintained the belief implicitly or otherwise, that if one job isn't right, I need simply to find something different.  Shouldn't there still be SOMETHING in our huge land, available to someone with a graduate degree, that isn't unacceptably high in producing and exacerbating anxiety and su*cidal depression?  I always believe the answer to be yes, and that I just haven't been able to find and obtain it yet, due to my limited resources and also the tunnel vision that tends to accompany mental disorders.

1 hour ago, uncertain1 said:

My step-daughter has a small food business (farmer's  markets, supply coffee shops, etc). She can't grow because she can't find new hires (she has a few employees now) Granted it's part time and early morning hours. She pays above minimum wage. She's posted job ads many times, including specialty sites for food services. She expects good work of course, but I believe she treats employees with respect and has been accommodating when employees have had personal issues. She's in a large city.

Not trying to hi-jack this thread. she just texted me that a person due to start today *just* texted her that they had decided not to take the job!!!  Shame we can't get the right employer-employee matches. I just feel for her. 

Maybe I am missing how this is responsive to Misanthrop's post.  I guess you're saying that there should be and are still some jobs and employers willing to pay simple, fair wages, for honest, reasonable work that isn't over-the-top stressful, and that the other side of the coin is that employers also have great difficulty finding good, reliable employees?

Sure.

Perhaps I don't see an actual contradiction in these two things.

I tend to believe that they actually work together - if we had a more human system, reasonable pace, etc. (which Europe does to some degree), more people would be healthier, depressed indiviuals

.........................................................................................................................................................................................................

I often here people in the media in political/economic debates talk about how hard it is to find "good help" and use this as though it somehow negates a critique of our capitalist system as unduly harsh, parasitic, etc.

I think this has it backwards.  I've always believed that businesses, commerce and economics themselves, exist to serve the ends, which are people.  Never the other way around.  And truth be told, we have gotten it backwards.  

My own belief is that the doctrine of corporate pershonhood has to be abolished.  I don't know if this alone, would be enough to re-order society to be more humane, but I do know its existence makes everything worse.  Presently the doctrine exists to confer maximum advantage and rights upon inanimate, abstract entities, and their owners, with every few of the attendant responsibilities.

There is a good documentary on YouTube and I think called The Corporation, which astutely uses the DSM criteria of a psychopath to show how destructive this current regime is.  It is more than a mere metaphor.  The comparison is actually quite direct and literal, and I think well-made.  Sure, it's more true for larger, multinational conglomerates which are in practice, a different animal than most sole proprietorships, but broadly speaking, growth is the indispensable goal of ALL profit-driven businesses, and the system is structured accordingly.

It is not that I think business or profit is inherently evil.  Far from it.  Nor do I think that some element of competition, or even wealth-incentive is morally wrong.  It is the excess, the unbridled, headlong, unabashed, relentless, all-consuming and superseding lust and drive for wealth at all costs.  That's what I think has been and is so corrosive to people, and I don't think I exaggerate it one iota.  The advent of global competition and the pace of technology has exacerbated this in the vast majority of workplaces to unimaginable lengths, and this is what you can see people here on this forum and everywhere else in life, decrying. Until we come up with a fundamentally better system, this should be further reigned in, limited, regulated, and yes, that includes redistribution of income and wealth.  This is the price we all pay to live in a civilized society.

The alternative--where we are quickly headed now-- is a new gilded age where we have 2 classes, super-rich, and ultra-poor, with almost nothing in between.  Tent and forrest cities will expand, middle class will disappear, and the fabric of our society will further erode.  Eventually, something along the lines of French Revolution-type of cataclysm will happen.  It's just the nature of things.  Many people have already felt the harshness of this fallout, and unfortunately, many more will, if we're not smart and strong enough to correct it.

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15 hours ago, Misanthrop said:

Only choose to work if you do not have financial support from elsewhere.

And do you know why disability assistance exists? Let me re-iteriate: working is ONLY for highly-functioning, high-achievers; people who thrive well under pressure. Not something suitable for mental illness sufferers.

Gosh yes. My ex mother in law once told my ex wife that I was unambitious. Well, she was right. I learned not to try way back when because my usual "reward" was a kick in the teeth.

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It's the Dilbert Principal (the Peter Principal) for a new generation.

Half will know what this means.

Half will justifiably not care.

(The thesis is that people get promoted 1 level beyond their competency level)

I suspect.

It happened to be withing the business degree purview in my Evangelical Christian college business program.

 

Medicaid overhead cost is 2 %. How does this compare to for profit health insurance and what does this mean morally.  Hint: it's far less.

What else do you need to know?

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22 hours ago, gandolfication said:

Your description of pursuing a professional writing career there is interesting.  I hadn't ever reduced it so much to those terms, but presumably you're right.

Scott Adams, the creator of Dilbert, which I loved in my younger years and do think he is a brilliant satirist and occasionally writer of other things (alas, enough is enough), has a couple mind-f*#king articles out there about his view that people should not follow their passions. That this is a recipe for emotion-laden bad judgment.  That instead, people should try as many things as possible and see what they're good at, what they like (so he allows for some passion/enjoyment naturally), develop systems, rather than goals (a topic unto itself I've occasionally written about), and essentially trial and error their way through life and work.  I think that's a bit easy for him to say given the career he's enjoyed, but I find myself often being persuaded to agree with his conclusions.

Haha, I did seriously research the possibility at one point while I was trying to get some short stories published. Just to see what people who had met with some success had to say about it. Needless to stay, I stopped shortly after that because the "reward" and the process were both so awful to me.

I looked into some of those articles and they're pretty good so far.

Edited by Bebop
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Hello g,

 "just don't have what it takes any more"

I felt that way many a times, but things will be better. In my latest jobs I have to do things that were unethical, I regreted but I dont blame myself because it wasnt my company. I was just a soldier receiveing orders. Of course I feelt bad and sad, hopefully I am no longer with them, but ethical issuess will be always in the corparate world, there are no values anymore, and thats how they make money.

You  do have what it takes, if not you wouldnt  acknowlegde it, and recognizing that is part of a process that will lead to better conclusions or better things.

And yes, depression and work are related, and for me it is hard to be competitive in the corporate world specially becuase I am not fronting, I dont like to be hipocryte. 

I hope you are feeling better.

Best

Flavio

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@flavio vaccarella Nice to meet you.

The Dilbert Principle definitely holds in my case. If I didn't already have a middle name, it would be "incompetent". I have no bidness being in the managerial role I'm at now. *All* of "my" employees are far smarter and better organized than I am. I actually feel guilty for sitting in my own office and signing their time cards, as if I hold "authority" over them.

Honestly, cleaning terlits or polishing someone's Buick is far more rewarding to me than what I actually get paid for.

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1 hour ago, JD4010 said:

@flavio vaccarella Nice to meet you.

The Dilbert Principle definitely holds in my case. If I didn't already have a middle name, it would be "incompetent". I have no bidness being in the managerial role I'm at now. *All* of "my" employees are far smarter and better organized than I am. I actually feel guilty for sitting in my own office and signing their time cards, as if I hold "authority" over them.

Honestly, cleaning terlits or polishing someone's Buick is far more rewarding to me than what I actually get paid for.

Hello JD, nice to meet you too. Clearly aknowledging what you just said makes you a better person. The important thing is to be truthfull to ourselves, thats what matters. I will read about the Dilbert Principle, it  is always good to learn more.

Just want to tell you that for me it is more rewarding talking to you than worring about money issues, coworkers o politics. 

Thouhg I am not here as often as I want, it is nice to relate to others in this forum because we speak our mind and that finally frees our soul.

best

Flavio

 

 

Though

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On 3/11/2018 at 3:32 PM, gandolfication said:

I would love to work for a university even if not in a teaching position.  I have applied a good deal in the past, and never ever had any real progress.  Anything is possible, and I aim and intend to adopt an attitude of not quitting. Even though that is just precisely how I feel right now.  Quitting permanently.

If you're trying to work for a university, you might want to start with a position you're slightly overqualified for, like something administrative or customer service-based. And also play up your resume to focus on your administrative and customer service skills. There is also an element of age-discrimination in university admin hires, so you might want to limit your resume to only the last 10 years and not list the years you graduated from college/grad school.

After you're hired and you work an admin position for a couple years, you're much more desirable for other positions because your familiar with the university software and polices/processes which take forever to train, so they would rather promote internally if possible.

Some positions you might want to look into...student advisor, program manager/analyst/coordinator...etc.

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On 3/17/2018 at 4:55 PM, morecoffee said:

If you're trying to work for a university, you might want to start with a position you're slightly overqualified for, like something administrative or customer service-based. And also play up your resume to focus on your administrative and customer service skills. There is also an element of age-discrimination in university admin hires, so you might want to limit your resume to only the last 10 years and not list the years you graduated from college/grad school.

After you're hired and you work an admin position for a couple years, you're much more desirable for other positions because your familiar with the university software and polices/processes which take forever to train, so they would rather promote internally if possible.

Some positions you might want to look into...student advisor, program manager/analyst/coordinator...etc.

Thank you

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Friend, I think you have an absolute right to "quit". In the sense that, what you have been doing previously is not working and you are not going to do it anymore. There is no reason to keep doing something that doesn't work, and all the jobs you have had at least since I have been on this forum meet that criteria. Before hunting for another job again, you may want to sit down with your family and tell them that the present course isn't working and you need to make a big change. I would tell them straight up it is a life and death issue, make a change or die.

 

Let the dominoes fall where they may. There is nothing you can do to change the outcome remaining in your present course. 

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15 hours ago, Afterglow1978 said:

Friend, I think you have an absolute right to "quit". In the sense that, what you have been doing previously is not working and you are not going to do it anymore. There is no reason to keep doing something that doesn't work, and all the jobs you have had at least since I have been on this forum meet that criteria. Before hunting for another job again, you may want to sit down with your family and tell them that the present course isn't working and you need to make a big change. I would tell them straight up it is a life and death issue, make a change or die.

 

Let the dominoes fall where they may. There is nothing you can do to change the outcome remaining in your present course. 

Thanks, and Yes, I have done that.

I simply have no way now to provide for my family.  Anxiety isn't abating and money's gone.  We are dead broke, dead I the water.

I cannot see another way out.

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On 3/17/2018 at 2:02 PM, JD4010 said:

@flavio vaccarella Nice to meet you.

The Dilbert Principle definitely holds in my case. If I didn't already have a middle name, it would be "incompetent". I have no bidness being in the managerial role I'm at now. *All* of "my" employees are far smarter and better organized than I am. I actually feel guilty for sitting in my own office and signing their time cards, as if I hold "authority" over them.

Honestly, cleaning terlits or polishing someone's Buick is far more rewarding to me than what I actually get paid for.

JD,

That may be true.... imposter syndrome in full force though.

But there is a counterbalancing axiom that is at least equally true to the Dilbert Principal.  This one I borrow from.the great Zig Ziglar's:

"Rarely is someone promoted or paid more than what they deserve.". This is especially true at entry and mid levels.  You would almost never ascribe such a suspicion to someone else (indeed reference your comments about ALL tiur reports being so superior).  Only as to yourself are you blind.to your virtues.  Others can see them.  Trust them even if you don't trust yourself. 

I know you believe you have atrophied, and you probably are right, though you cannot be certain all your perceptions--most especially the negative ones--are accurate.

You were promoted and kept in your post for reasons, and those reasons have not disappeared.  Others know this to be true - you too know at least  this last part is true.  Trust the rest until the awareness and balance comes back to you.

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@gandolfication Thanks, my friend. Some days I almost feel competent. "Atrophy" is a great descriptor for me. I keep dreaming about rewinding my life back to 1977 and reliving it far differently than I have. The next year sounded the knell that signaled my slow slide into what I think of as madness. It's a long story of course, just as everyone's is.

If only...coulda woulda shoulda...etc.

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Thanks for the response. I need to rebuild myself. Change my approach to work and life in general. There's a rational part of me that says I could do it. But my irrational aspect says that I can't and I'm stuck with who I am now. Unfortunately, that irrational side is far stronger.

Maybe I should think of what I liked about my life in 1977 and try to adapt that to 2018. Wonder if I can find an AMC Gremlin to drive around in.

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1 hour ago, JD4010 said:

Thanks for the response. I need to rebuild myself. Change my approach to work and life in general. There's a rational part of me that says I could do it. But my irrational aspect says that I can't and I'm stuck with who I am now. Unfortunately, that irrational side is far stronger.

Maybe I should think of what I liked about my life in 1977 and try to adapt that to 2018. Wonder if I can find an AMC Gremlin to drive around in.

It does work.  You can rebuild yourself.  I did.  I looked back through all of my long stretches of sobriety and tried to add all the positive things from my life during those times to make the me of now.

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1 hour ago, sober4life said:

It does work.  You can rebuild yourself.  I did.  I looked back through all of my long stretches of sobriety and tried to add all the positive things from my life during those times to make the me of now.

I feel like I've tortured myself with this question personally.  Because, obviously, I have not been able to do it in actual fact.  I do know that others who essentially have, or, probably as they would put it, they have continued to grow and adapt and evolve.  This is a more hopeful conception for me personally, and it aligns with what we know about neurogenesis and neuroplasticity.  It might be splitting hairs anyway, I guess I just felt like saying this on my own account because for a decade, I've done little but prove to myself what should have been obvious from the start, I can never 'go back.'

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34 minutes ago, gandolfication said:

I feel like I've tortured myself with this question personally.  Because, obviously, I have not been able to do it in actual fact.  I do know that others who essentially have, or, probably as they would put it, they have continued to grow and adapt and evolve.  This is a more hopeful conception for me personally, and it aligns with what we know about neurogenesis and neuroplasticity.  It might be splitting hairs anyway, I guess I just felt like saying this on my own account because for a decade, I've done little but prove to myself what should have been obvious from the start, I can never 'go back.'

Of course it would be better to adapt and evolve.  When I started it all there was not much left of me and what was left I didn't like.  I was also actively being a completely different person with different goals.  Before I was self destructive and didn't care about anything good in life.  Now all I want is to have the best life possible.

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