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Positivenegative

Why doesnt Existential Depression get talked about as much ?

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So it has been recognized that there are three types of depression, and usually people have some combo of them. Situational depression, Chemical depression, and Existential depression. The first two make sense. The third, which I struggle with, makes no sense, and it's pretty much incurable via any traditional technique, like medication or therapy. (I know this through much research and personal experience). 

Now I am having a very bad episode of depression, and I find myself in the same place: white knuckling it until something changes. This is no way to live. I hate it. My question is, does anyone else have any experience dealing with Existential depression? (Or a combo of depressions). 

I feel I'm not making sense but my brain is just tired from all the negative energy and BS going on in the world and in my world. 

thanks for listening. 

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It's not talked about because it can't be medicated away.  Many depression-oriented websites are designed to get people on meds and stay there.  They serve big pharma.  Discussing the spiritual issues related to depression is discouraged.

Like you, my depression is existential.  I realized this after trying and failing to medicate myself out of my problems.  So I am seeking existential answers now.

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Hi Positivenegative,

I can relate to the feeling of "white knuckling it", and can definitely empathize. You're certainly not alone there and I find myself also struggling with existential-related depression. Existentialism is a big part of my life in general, and for me, talk therapy and self reflection has helped make a big difference. Questions and concerns of Existential guilt, authenticity, and "unfinished business" come to mind for me, and again, what helped for me is really a lot of self-reflection. Sometimes just talking it out with a counselor or trusted friend/family member regularly can uncover things you haven't considered before. I know I struggle with in-authenticity sometimes, and the guilt that arises when I constantly hide and ignore how I really feel and want to act. Among other things for me, it brings about a depressive state that doesn't really have a distinct "origin" but over time eats away at me. In the end it led to a question of finding meaning in my life and in each day--and most times, finding meaning in the suffering. A book that really stood out for me was Viktor Frankel's "A Man's search for Meaning" where he talks about his life during the time of the Holocaust and his experience of surviving his time at the camps. It's not about "if I can do it, so can you", rather using his experience as an example to explain his ideas of "logotherapy" (meaning-based therapy) and discussing that existential-based depression you talked about. It's not too long, and I highly recommend it. What's helped for me was, over time, reflecting on where I can find meaning in each day, goals to aspire to, and reflecting on the authentic "self" that I want to aspire to. Therapy (and perhaps medication, if you feel you need it) can sometimes help to manage the road blocks (as Irvin Yalom would call them) that are getting in the way. I also struggle with anxiety, for example, and part of my own therapy is addressing that in addition to my self-exploration. We all find meaning in different places and with different situations, and it's something we all have to find our own answer to. I don't know if that helped, but I'd be more than willing to keep sharing experiences and talking about it if it would. I truly hope things get easier for you both (including One More Red Nightmare who also posted). One day at a time, right? 

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Hey Blue Beetle,

Thank you for your in-depth response. Yes, I read the same book and I loved it. I do try to search for meaning everyday, in all the things I do. I meditate and try to practice gratitude for the times that I am not so deeply depressed. 

I suppose my issue or circumstance that really gets to me the most is the relentlessness of what we label depression. I am just too tired after all these years to search for anymore meaning. I still believe there is meaning in life, but I'm too physically and emotionally exhausted to search for it or to even care sometimes. My soul is telling me, hey you matter! But the world is so dark and hateful that my mind, body, and brain are telling me, it's not worth the fight anymore. 

So I suppose that I can make it through my depression, but I feel like the world and the culture/society we live in will never meet my needs, and that is upsetting. 

Thanks for listening. 

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I suffer from this existential type of depression and have found that nothing helps. I have tried countless medications, therapy, and I'm currently still trying both of those, but nothing is changing. I have been this way for so so long now... I'm constantly circling the notion of why am I here and why am I even thinking? Is there a point to living or life? Is there suppose to be a point to life, a purpose? And what does it mean for something to be real? Do I even exist? What does it mean to exist

I think of death often and how death is one of the utmost real things out there. If nothing else exists or is up for question, perhaps death is the one truth to all. I mean, we all die eventually. It is incredibly real, in my opinion. 

Sorry my thoughts are so unclear and all over the place, I am trying my best to describe to you what I run through in my head, especially when I am down.

You are definitely not alone in struggling through this kind of depression, but it is hard to manage because I think it requires a great deal of personal self- exploration and realization. 

Best to you. Stay strong. 

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I think a lot of those who mention "meaningless" as in life has no meaning for them, really do suffer from existential

I personally have chemical. my depression has no meaning, but then I can have a kind of depression sandwich where everything, all types are all piled up on each other. Like:

 

Serotonin levels off, (chemical)

and

life has no meaning (existential)

and

I'm losing my house (situational)

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Hey Positivenegative,

   It's definitely upsetting, I hear you there. It's so overwhelming and overbearing thinking and seeing so many horrific and/or damaging things in the news and in our daily lives. Sometimes it's tough getting out of bed in the morning. I know I've been there, thinking: "What's the point?" sometimes. But maybe that courage you speak of, in persevering despite your struggles, is in itself a source of some meaning? Not that I have the right to name that for you, but speaking for myself, I feel what keeps me going is the little spark of hope deep down, that things won't always be this way. That I won't feel this everyday. It's a sort of faith, in a way, a faint tug that keeps me going. To dare to try and see the world for what it could be, rather than what it may present right now. And for me, I guess, there's a sense of meaning in keeping that faith alive and trying to help others through their struggles. Providing a reminder to others that there are still those who are willing to reach out and help, despite it all. And finding some solace in unexpected laughs and smiles throughout the weeks. The little sparks of light in that overbearing darkness. And the knowledge that there are others struggling, yet selflessly aiding others and making their way through the overbearing reality we live in. Hope still endures, and--for me--I find meaning in keeping that hope alive. Who knows what the future holds, or what may become of us, and absolutely that voice is like a cold sting in the back of our minds: "It's not worth it." For me, at least, finding even the tiniest way to help another DOES make the struggle worth it. For those (including us) struggling with all sorts of mental illness (or however a medical journal chooses to identify them), we truly can appreciate the feeling of joy and/or contentment when it comes. And how debilitating it is living with it. That experience can be so valuable in help another in their struggles. To help another is to change the world itself, I think.

 So glad to hear that you are still able to, despite everything you're going through, hear a little reminder that you matter from deep down. I agree. You do matter. I hope you're able to keep moving forward. Baby steps, uncertain steps perhaps, but steps moving forward. Not easy for me either, but I'm doing my best!

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Situational depression, Chemical depression, and Existential depression.

This is just based on what I think, but,

well, I look at the first as a rather normal experience, more like feeling down and feeling miserable as opposed to true depression. It's part of being human to go through difficult circumstances and feelings. But the second one, which I would call  simply clinical depression, which is usually mix of factors including chemical/genetics or whatever.

Then there's existential which based on personal experience and what I see on here, it seems to be often apart of depression. You would usually see this in the form, 'what is the point of everything', 'everything seems so meaningless'. So I think it is talked about here quite a bit. And I remember feeling this way all the time, in a way not easy to describe, but those who have felt it know.

as for

Quote

and it's pretty much incurable via any traditional technique, like medication or therapy

for me personally, whats helped is improving depression through therapy, which has also lessened that existential questioning considerably. So I wouldn't say it's incurable. But it's hard to deal with certiainly, in that it's partly part of the human condition and the way depression affects us and our perception of things.

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If you are a sensitive soul and are aware of how much evil really controls our world, existential depression is hard to avoid.  I am an O-, so I pick up on the pain and fear of others pretty easily.  Add that to my own pain and fear and insecurity, and life can seem unbearable.

Pills and therapies aren't going to change the world.  At most they'll give you some temporary relief from it, but that's not enough for me.

I don't want to just collapse into despair every day, so I have to fight back. But how?  I started a routine of getting up early every day, exercising very intensely (which increases my vibration and pushes me into the "spirit"), and then intensely praying when I am in the spirit.  (If you don't like the religious aspects of prayer, consider it meditation of a sort.)

When I really get into it, I feel great.  But I can't maintain it all day, and by the evening I'm pretty tired and feel the depression again.  If I ever get too depressed to exercise and pray, then I know I'll be in deep trouble.  At the very least for now my depression has gotten me into great physical shape, for what it's worth.

I think this is a great topic and thread. 

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What helped me with my existential depression was mindfulness mediation. Alot of existential questions are just abstract noise the brain creates because of how language is structured. I use to read tons of philosophy book growing up I eventually reached the conclusion that most existential questions are absurd, things like free will vs determinism, first causes, the laws between cause and effect, what is the purpose of my life the universe, what is the self,what is right or wrong etc are really just symptoms of depression, either chemical or situational that we discuss by rationalizing our situation to focus on something else. What I would recommend is to start thinking about concepts without words. you can do this by practicing meditation or being mindful of things around you in your environment. As you slowly change your thinking patterns you will realize, that the existential question is a way for you to detach from your emotions and reject them, the psychological term is intellectilzation. When you clear your mind from the chatter your questions will be answered, the path you truly want to take will be revealed. One day it will all make sense spontaneously you could be going for a walk, looking out at the sunset or looking at the moon and it will just sucker punch you.

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I've given existentential depression some thought as I've suffered from it most of my life (angst or weltschmerz are other words I use in this context)  and there are in fact schools of therapy that deal with existential depression. It should be talked about more. After all, more emphasis is being placed on talk-therapy in general anyway. I too believe it's rarely a case of either one kind of depression or another. Perhaps it's because we are  depressed in the "traditional" sense,  we start thinking of the big picture more easily.

Viktor Frankl, a proponent for logotherapy, is one example of what is generally called existential psychotherapy. Basically the objective is to get one to realize the  meaning of ones life, that also subjective suffering and feelings of emptiness have meaning too.

I read somewhere that it's because we have more time on hands that we get (existentially) depressed. We don't have to think of our immediate survival anymore. We are living in a world where belief systems aren't apparently  necessary.  Our lives perhaps lack structure as we tend to live more alone than the  generations before us, so we feel empty and more lonely than our ancestors. In this context it's no surprise that philosophy was invented in the slave driven ancient Greece by the affluent few,  being in the position we pretty much are our ouselves nowadays. Basically (existential) depression is an illness of the affluent. I don't entirely subscribe to this view, btw, but I m sure there is some truth in it.

I.agree with scienceguy . Language is one cause of our confusion and getting rid of the clutter of the mind is a major step foward. 

The thing is depression,  be it any kind at all might just serve a purpose, both for us individually and as a species. Perhaps we need to own it, instead of just trying to make it go away. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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wow. i so appreciate the contributors and contributions here. So thoughtful. another great topic. I'd never heard of existential depression. Knowing we will one day die and having to choose our own purpose and meaning (or meaninglessness) does pose a daunting task. such responsibility. a little scary. this really got me thinking this morning. Its seems we are all in the same boat though on this so i challenge Yaloms subtyping of depression. 

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Thanks for talking about this. I used to (?) suffer from that which you call chemical depression until medication corrected it. After months of religious medication I am probably depression free and I am hoping I do not succumb to yet another relapse. 

I was aware of this kind of depression but I was not aware that there was indeed a term for it. That seems to be the other side of what I was going through. I may have a strategy for chemical depression which was medication but I have no answers for existential depression.

Quote

When people talk about depression, sometimes they refer to different types based upon what they think may have caused their depression. One such possible cause is existential in nature, that is, a person ends up questioning his or her life, death or meaning of life, and by doing so, lapses into depression.

According to existentialism, a specific type of philosophy, humans are driven to meaning in their lives not by a specific type of deity or god, or by an outside authority, but internally, through our own choices, desires and pursuits. Humans are entirely free, and, therefore, entirely responsible for their own happiness or misery. It is up to each one of us to create the meaning which drives our life, whether it be through work, hobbies, charity, religion, relationships, offspring, family, or something else.

 

Existential depression may occur when a person comes face to face with these kinds of issues of life, death, freedom and the meaning of their life. For instance, a person with existential depression might ask themselves, “What is the meaning of my life? Is it only to work 9 to 5, have a family, and then die? Will I ever find someone who truly understands and believes in me no matter what? Does god care about me? Does anyone else truly care about me?” Existential depression may be characterized by a unique sense of hopelessness in feeling that our lives may actually be meaningless.

People who experience normal clinical depression may also experience existential issues related to the meaning of their life in the course of psychotherapy to treat the depression. This is a normal component of treatment of depression, and many clinicians will often work with the person to help them explore the meaning of their life if this happens.

Finding one’s meaning or passion in life is something that many people consider important, and an episode of existential depression can help focus a person’s need to find an answer to that question. Existential depression is usually treated not with any type of prescription medication, but rather psychotherapy focused on helping the person explore the meaning of their life.

Existential depression may be caused by a specific event in the person’s life (e.g., loss of a job or a loved one), or nothing at all. Existential depression has not been widely researched and no specific therapeutic approaches have been shown to work better than others in its treatment.

 

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I don't feel that pure, existential depression occurs in isolation. In the absence or other forms of depression, I would say that a person might experience sporadic "existential sadness" or the sense that, perhaps, they lack purpose in life. But this would be far different from the nonstop cloud that clinical depression tends to place over your head (and all depression symptoms, in general). When I'm not clinically depressed, the existential depression mostly goes away. I might still have a negative view of the world when I see bad things happening, but that doesn't color my entire mood and/or outlook. In effect, "existential depression" may be a misnomer because I think people confuse that with clinical depression, which comes with a whole different array of symptoms - and related problems. 

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On 12/17/2016 at 9:58 AM, Positivenegative said:
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Apologizing in advance for rambling or not being very coherent with my thoughts.  This thread has so much information in it that I never thought of before, and it brings up a lot of thoughts that I haven't organized yet or completely explored.

On 12/17/2016 at 9:58 AM, Positivenegative said:
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So it has been recognized that there are three types of depression, and usually people have some combo of them. Situational depression, Chemical depression, and Existential depression. The first two make sense. The third, which I struggle with, makes no sense, and it's pretty much incurable via any traditional technique, like medication or therapy. (I know this through much research and personal experience). 


Seriously, I've read this thread a couple of times in the last 4 days or so.  It brings a whole new idea to me.  I never heard of existential depression and I think this is mostly what I have but I've thought about it as a spirit thing (as in... "my soul was born to experience certain specific things and it has a personal path... and that's the whole point of my life... and if I can't be free to explore where my soul leads, I will die having wasted the precious gift of life.")  


Sorry to sound so corny, but I really do feel like the closer I get to knowing my self, the more frustrated I get at having to play a role, wear a mask... Knowing me and being the me I was born to be, living the life I was born to live, becomes the most important thing.  I've recognized all the things in society that have no personal meaning for me, no value.  

I've then recognized what I do value.  And that is space to feel and breath emotionally.  Space to allow whatever is in me to flow.  There is SO much distraction in this world, so much materialism and people wearing masks because they can't be real.  And when I can't walk away from all the useless energy hitting my soul, I feel trapped, and regulated.

If emotion is energy in motion, then it makes sense that humans weren't born to wake up every day and do the exact same thing they did the day before.  We are all just made of energy, effected by the energy around us.  Stagnant boring energy is like death to the soul.  

On the other hand, all the evil and pain and abuse this world has, is torture to the soul.  Only people that can't FEEL their souls any more, are able to live in the boxes and format of this consumerist, superficial, competitive, greedy, monetary, wage-slave-creating system.

Please don't take my words as if I'm lecturing or saying how this is for every one.  This is only how it is for me, in my present personal existence.  I think we're each born for a different reason, our own personal paths.  There's no way I can say what is right for someone else.

I'm rambling, but it's because existential depression is such a new term for me.

On 12/17/2016 at 0:11 PM, One More Red Nightmare said:

It's not talked about because it can't be medicated away.  Many depression-oriented websites are designed to get people on meds and stay there. 

This may be why I have balked at letting them put me on daily meds.  I have some pills I take on as needed basis.  But in my head I feel like it's a worthless remedy because my anxiety will come back unfixed and unchanged until I'm able to navigate my personal path.

 

On 12/17/2016 at 2:44 PM, Positivenegative said:

Hey Blue Beetle,

Thank you for your in-depth response. Yes, I read the same book and I loved it. I do try to search for meaning everyday, in all the things I do. I meditate and try to practice gratitude for the times that I am not so deeply depressed. 

I suppose my issue or circumstance that really gets to me the most is the relentlessness of what we label depression. I am just too tired after all these years to search for anymore meaning. I still believe there is meaning in life, but I'm too physically and emotionally exhausted to search for it or to even care sometimes. My soul is telling me, hey you matter! But the world is so dark and hateful that my mind, body, and brain are telling me, it's not worth the fight anymore. 

So I suppose that I can make it through my depression, but I feel like the world and the culture/society we live in will never meet my needs, and that is upsetting. 

Thanks for listening. 

I can completely relate to this.  

 

Edited by sicofsociety

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On 12/17/2016 at 2:44 PM, Positivenegative said:

I still believe there is meaning in life, but I'm too physically and emotionally exhausted to search for it or to even care sometimes. My soul is telling me, hey you matter! But the world is so dark and hateful that my mind, body, and brain are telling me, it's not worth the fight anymore. 

So I suppose that I can make it through my depression, but I feel like the world and the culture/society we live in will never meet my needs, and that is upsetting. 

I'm going to flounder here, just trying to organize the thoughts this made me think of.

To me, society is 'shaped' to look externally for everything... answers to questions, satisfaction from life... and the times I've tried to look internally for my answers, my peace, my food for spirit, or even as my own company, it didn't really work.  Because it's still a feeling of alienation and disconnection from the rest of humanity.  We don't exist in a vacuum and I felt like I needed at least some basic things from peers, neighbors, friends, family, SOMEONE SOMEWHERE.

Then I got to some kind of point where I realized... no one really gets any one else.  At least not completely.  And no one else will walk with me when I leave life to go to the other side.  And for me, all I'm doing in society is wearing masks to facilitate interactions with people who wouldn't really get me.

So I went in the woods on a friend's property for about a year, and just felt spirit in nature, felt my own acceptance, and relief from not having to wear a mask.  And now that I'm back in society, I hate it.  My relief from depression is when I really really believe I'm going to be able to buy my own couple acres and get back out of society.

The other thing you made me think of is that it really really gets to me when I see the evil, greed, and superficiality in this world.  I HATE that any child, senior, or animal suffered at the hands of an a******.  I HATE what the oil groups, meat groups, and other money groups, do.

I hate that people are passive about the things destroying our planet.  And at times, this consumes, makes me feel the futility of caring, makes me feel hopeless to see all the people that don't care about these things that I think are so important.

So your thread made me wonder, when I get depressed about it, maybe that's actually situational depression.  It has nothing to do with following my soul (I guess except if my path IS to fight and get involved with these issues...).

But all this crap going on on OUR planet is situational and for me to have situational depression over it  must mean that at some point, I've included the well being of helpless lives and the planet as part of my existence.  Like... we are all one.  The planet belongs to all of us and we should all stand up for victims who have no one.

But the hopelessness of that made me have to change.  If we are all just energy... then all the energy inside me is mostly negative (sadness, anger, pain, regret, despair...)

Humans vibrate at the same frequency as the earth and plants.  So for my own preservation (and not to waste my whole point of life), I decided I have to find peace, and put my self in a place where I can absorb good energy by being around nature, allowing my emotion to flow, change, and go... and being around only people who I can feel positive toward.  

(I'm older than you though... 58... so for me, I have only a little more time to feel life that isn't full of strife.)

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On 12/18/2016 at 1:57 PM, scienceguy said:

What helped me with my existential depression was mindfulness mediation. Alot of existential questions are just abstract noise the brain creates because of how language is structured. When you clear your mind from the chatter your questions will be answered, the path you truly want to take will be revealed. One day it will all make sense spontaneously you could be going for a walk, looking out at the sunset or looking at the moon and it will just sucker punch you.

THIS.... is what I want to print out and put on my wall to remind me.

This  really resonates with me.  Thank you for voicing it.

There's been times I've gone to a secluded park with a question in mind... sat on a bench and cleared my head.  And an answer would come that was the perfect answer to my conflict but was not the answer to the question I had.  IF I had hung on to the question I would have never realized that I was asking the wrong question for my particular situation.

The times I've felt a small revelation, I've tried to use words to describe it perfectly.  It's frustrating.  Because once you put it into words, you start labeling and categorizing, and the spirit (wisdom) of the  revelation gets lost.  I think because we don't completely have names/words for all the things in spirit.  Even if we did... relaying the wisdom in words to another person is really difficult unless the person has already experienced what you're trying to explain.

I don't know if I took your words the way you were meaning them right now even.  This is just the thoughts you brought to my mind with your words.

Edited by sicofsociety

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I feel the exact same. I am often contemplating why I'm here, what is the point of being here, what my purpose is, if I even have a purpose, if there is more to life than what I am experiencing....it goes on and on.  Sometimes I will just sit and stare blankly while thinking "What the hell am I doing here?"  

Most days I don't see a point. A lot of days I am stuck wondering and feeling so unfulfilled internally. I don't know what the meaning of existing on Earth is.  I don't know why I was put here if I was just going to experience a bunch of turmoil. If I am to sit and watch other people around the world suffer from war, disease, hunger...what is the point of being here in this case?  

It doesn't seem fair. 

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I say "now that I know who I am" so often that I just realized, I really don't know completely who I am.  ALL I know is that being around society and people have hindered my ability to think my own thoughts, explore them, and navigate around to what my internal compass tells me.

I spent years trying to be and feel what I thought I should.  It wasn't even conscious.  It came natural to me to view myself as certain classes of society would view me.  Constant subconscious monitoring... how to behave at work, how does my boss and co-workers view me... what role does my family want me to play... what type of job, car, house should I have to be acceptable.  What do my clothes say about me.  

I spent years on food stamps and even that gave me a subconscious image of myself that I carried and reacted to.

I was completely defined by what I should be in adulthood and I fell short.  Not only did I not feel good enough in certain circles, but I didn't even respect my own self.

It wasn't until I thought I'd be homeless that I looked around at homeless people and saw a lack of dignity and wondered, "if I'm homeless, is there a way I can still have dignity even if I am substandard by society's yardstick?"

I'm not a believer in God, but I asked how god would view me, what is his value system.  He'd like me if I had a kind heart.  Period.

Having a kind heart is not enough to make me feel like I value my own life.

I thought of how I felt as a kid.  Kids have the purest of spirits.  I got a lot of fullfillment from spending time outside.  My parents let us roam our small town and I had a lot of freedom.  So I thought about the things that gave my spirit inspiration when I was a kid.  I loved animals, drawing, bike riding, etc. 

Kids don't have to sensor themselves.  They feel.  Emotion is energy in motion.  They cry fully, and get it out, and then have peace.  They laugh fully.  All emotion is felt fully.

I drew on my childhood a lot when I was deciding what I wanted out of my life regardless despite how peers might view my needs, likes, dislikes, values, etc.

I feel so worried for kids now days who grow up in angry abusive homes.  If they're never allowed to feel the wonder and peace/joy of life in their childhood spirit, how will they ever re-find that once they decide being adult and fitting in only means death of spirit.

So maybe I don't really know who I am but I've learned the many parts of me that aren't my choosing.  And I just know that unless my spirit can breath and be exactly what it is, I'll never be happy.   I have to be in a place where I can experience things that affect me positively... around nature, away from toxicity, etc.  Because people make me wear a mask.  If I'm not authentic to my own emotion, if I have to sensor myself... then my true feelings are going to get jammed up and repressed.  No flow.  If they can't flow and affect me, then my life has no personal value to me.

Edited by sicofsociety

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If existential depression is the crisis of existing in a meaningless existence, then it can't be separated from energy of spirit, right?  I guess the question is whether or not we're each born to follow a personal tailor made path, or if life is all just random, no real meaning, master design, or purpose.

But even if it's just random, seems like a crime not to spend it finding the life that feeds my spirit/soul.  I do believe we all have individual ones otherwise we wouldn't have artists, geniuses, mathematicians, those who have the gift of nurturing, etc.

Anyway thanks for letting me ramble.  Existential depression just got me to thinking about things.

Edited by sicofsociety

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