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Exploring The Reason(S) I Don't Date

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I feel like I have missed out on so much in the dating world. I know there are a lot of bad stories but also a lot of beautiful ones, and those are the memories that I don't have that I wish I did. I have never once in my life had a healthy dating experience with anyone, and as time goes on I struggle to figure out why. Maybe it isn't my fault, but maybe I am not trying hard enough to put myself out there. I don't know. But I feel like life is passing me by. I try so hard to not be jealous of others, but I constantly wonder why I seem to be exempt from the fun and the love everyone else seems to be experiencing.

 

I will confess here that I have not had physical contact with a man since the summer of 2003. It's not that I haven't wanted to; it just happens to be the last time I was intimate with someone. Unfortunately, that memory from 2003 is not a pleasant one. I was 23 and at a big party where I met my friend's cousin. I got drunk and made out with him, and then he led me away from everybody into a camper and had sex with me. I didn't want it, and I had told him that, but while we were making out in the camper he took it further and that was that. The only person in my family who knows is my brother-in-law whom I told about 6 years later. Several of my friends know, and all of the therapists I have seen since then. Many times I even felt like the therapists were making more of a big deal out of it than I thought it was. 

 

I feel like I dealt with the incident and put it behind me. I don't ever think about it, and I have gone on a few dates since then, although nothing came of them. I just feel like I was cursed that night. I absolutely hate it that my last memory of being physical with anyone was from that night. I don't feel like it affected me that deeply otherwise, but sometimes I wonder if it did.

 

It actually brings tears to my eyes when I think about how he was the last person I have kissed. I don't even know what I'm asking here. Maybe nothing. I just don't understand any of this. I really don't. I am a great catch and nobody sees it. I am good to everybody and I try to take care of myself. I don't understand why I am always the one left with nobody. I seriously feel like that man cursed me. How crappy is it that his actions that night are all that I have to reflect on when I think of the last man to touch me in that way? 

 

There are days when I wish I could have a do-over. Like I could be born again with the brain and heart of someone else, someone whose life I envy now and could live in their shoes for a while, just to get a break from my own. I think I should stop writing now because I feel like I'm just rambling at this point. Thanks to anyone who has taken the time to read this.

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I am so sorry that you had to experience that. I kind of think it probably has affected you in ways you don't even realize. It's very possible that you've built walls around you that you are unaware of that other people can sense.

I think it may help you to write a letter to the "jerk" that did this to you and tell him your thoughts---of course, not mailing it but either burning it or something that you feel is therapeutic for you, perhaps something like you are no longer going to let him take this part of your life away from you.

 

Please know though, above all else, you do matter and there's no time limit on dating.

 

(((Hugs)))

 

Please post as often as you like, it helps to get those thoughts out on "paper" rather than them taking space in your mind.

Edited by freckledface

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Sorry you are having such a hard time. I haven't had your experiences but thee are others at DF who have. There is a Forum dedicated to it, you need a password, I'm not quite sure how to access it, you need to contact one of the moderators. The moderator for each forum is listed at the bottom of the forum. This one is sheepwoman. If you click on her then send a personal message maybe she could advise.

Meanwhile best wishes

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Hello there,

I don't think you were rambling. I thought that your thoughts were well put together but so sad.

I do think this man has affected you in ways you probably don't even know. Having sex with someone is a big deal, especially when it was not wanted. Sex may not be a big deal to the newest generation because it is everywhere these days and magazines and television make it seem like the norm to just sleep with anyone and expose yourself.

I think maybe you subconsciously feel afraid of having relations with other people because it is a reminder of what you went through.. You kept it to yourself for so long and in doing that I think that you may have built a little protective wall between you and other people.

I had something similar happen to me and it absolutely makes me feel sick to this day. Once the experience was over, I felt empty and hollow and not sure why it happened or if it was even real because it was like a nightmare. It was heartbreaking and made me feel uncomfortable even to be in my own skin.

I think that your therapists are right to be concerned about this issue in your life and to try to work through it with you. I'm sure you are scarred by this experience because who was that man to have sex with you when you didn't want it? I am sorry that this happened to you. I know it must have taken a lot for you to write about it and get your feelings out and I glad you were able to share.

You deserve to be able to sort through your feelings about this and open yourself up to another experience with a man and relationship.

Like you said, you are a great catch and when you're comfortable, I am sure you will be able to let another man in and feel safe with him. Don't give up hope and love because of this man who clearly didn't deserve any part of you. You do deserve a nice man who will respect and appreciate you. I know that when you are ready, you will find it easier to be open with a new love interest.

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Just gonna throw this out there as food for thought. While it is best to focus on ourselves and not worry too much about other peoples issues unless there is a really good reason to do so, it may be helpful in a situation like this one, to consider the other person's experience

What i mean is, you seem to assume that the guy just "led you away and that was that", sort of like there was no thought or emotion on his side, only actions that ended up cursing you somehow.

In reality, that experience may have been just as unfortunate for him. I will give you an example:

About 6 months ago i worked up the energy to do the OKcupid thing again. After a few weeks i met a girl for coffee and a few nights later had her over in my bed where we had sex.

We texted for a couple more weeks but then that was it. She eventually sensed that i did not care much and i just did not feel any emotion or attraction for her. No biggie, i felt we did not match, although i am sure she probably was left feeling somewhat hurt. She took a risk, gave herself up to me physically, and i quickly rejected her-- not intentionally, that is just the way it turned out.

What she does not know, and in my opinion it is not worth even putting any additional time or effort into, is that i did feel a little bad about what happened, but ultimately it was probably just as damaging and unfortunate for me. I left feeling more depressed than ever, since I feel like why even bother with this dating stuff, it is impossible. As a result i never want to even go on okcupid ever again. While the experience was one more learning experience for me, i sort of regret the whole thing. The girl was sweet and kind and decent looking, but something about the experience just kind of "grossed" me out. I sort of hate myself for it. And it is just one more bad experience to add to my mountain of bad experiences. So from her perspective it was probably just the universe cursing her, but to me it is also the universe cursing me.

Anyways i guess my point is just that maybe the guy you had sex with was hurt just as much, maybe even more, but in a different way. And you may never be able to know. Sometimes it is comforting knowing that we are not alone in our problems

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Just gonna throw this out there as food for thought. While it is best to focus on ourselves and not worry too much about other peoples issues unless there is a really good reason to do so, it may be helpful in a situation like this one, to consider the other person's experience

What i mean is, you seem to assume that the guy just "led you away and that was that", sort of like there was no thought or emotion on his side, only actions that ended up cursing you somehow.

In reality, that experience may have been just as unfortunate for him. I will give you an example:

About 6 months ago i worked up the energy to do the OKcupid thing again. After a few weeks i met a girl for coffee and a few nights later had her over in my bed where we had sex.

We texted for a couple more weeks but then that was it. She eventually sensed that i did not care much and i just did not feel any emotion or attraction for her. No biggie, i felt we did not match, although i am sure she probably was left feeling somewhat hurt. She took a risk, gave herself up to me physically, and i quickly rejected her-- not intentionally, that is just the way it turned out.

What she does not know, and in my opinion it is not worth even putting any additional time or effort into, is that i did feel a little bad about what happened, but ultimately it was probably just as damaging and unfortunate for me. I left feeling more depressed than ever, since I feel like why even bother with this dating stuff, it is impossible. As a result i never want to even go on okcupid ever again. While the experience was one more learning experience for me, i sort of regret the whole thing. The girl was sweet and kind and decent looking, but something about the experience just kind of "grossed" me out. I sort of hate myself for it. And it is just one more bad experience to add to my mountain of bad experiences. So from her perspective it was probably just the universe cursing her, but to me it is also the universe cursing me.

Anyways i guess my point is just that maybe the guy you had sex with was hurt just as much, maybe even more, but in a different way. And you may never be able to know. Sometimes it is comforting knowing that we are not alone in our problems

 

No - read my post again. I mentioned that I had told the guy that I didnt want it (before it happened). Your story does not include a dialogue where one person tells the other that they didn't want any sex. The girl you slept with did not have sex with you after telling you she didn't want it. There was thought and emotion on his part - the thought was, "She's drunk and doesn't know what she's doing, and now I'm going to score." I could care less about his emotions. He wasn't even man enough to face me the next day. 

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It seems to me you were affected by this incident in ways you can't explain consciously to others and maybe even yourself. It was a traumatic experience and it may have interferred in your behavior, attitudes, mood, etc. As other members suggested it will probably help discussing this in therapy and perhaps reflecting more on your feelings and thoughts generated by this event.

Edited by ffontaine

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I believe I probably am still affected by what happened, I just don't know to what extent because it was a long time ago and I do not date much (ever), so I don't know what being in a relationship will be like now. I do feel some fear when it comes to dating, but once in a while I meet a man that I feel "safe" around (unfortunately none of them reciprocated interest). I spend way too much time thinking about why men don't act attracted to me or why no one shows interest in getting to know me. That's why I feel like I've been cursed. If I had done something wrong or was a crappy person, then I would deserve to be isolated from love and healthy relationships, but I haven't. I get so angry inside sometimes. It's probably why I don't spend a lot of time exploring this subject because all it seems to do is upset me. And when I read posts like sloth's above about how he went out with a girl, showed interest, slept with her, and then stopped showing interest, I get even more p***** off and it makes me not even want to try again because I am scared that will happen to me, too, once I let my guard down. But I know there are good guys out there, I just don't know how to find one of them. I feel so messed up inside.

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I sense some anger in your posts. That is ok. It is ok to be angry sometimes.

You will probably not like what i have to say now, but it is my honest opinion and i think a lot of people would agree with me. i think that when a person (guy or girl) makes the decision to drink, or do drugs, or in any way knowingly and willingly alters their own state of mind, especially in a social setting, they must be prepared for things to happen under poor judgment, including being seduced into sex and regretting it later.

One must know their own limitations. For example, i cannot tolerate very mich alcohol or drugs at all. I am skinny and very sensitive to things. So i know my limits and behave accordingly. A person who does not know their limits should experiment in safe settings where they know the chances of bad things happening will much lower.

Also, limiting one's dating to only people they feel "safe" around is likely to backfire. I do not mean to surround yourself with people who you think may physically harm you, but having a strong fear of ending up with the "wrong" person typically results in the fear being realized due to the strong emotional charge attached to it. The reason for this is that, just like magnets, you will end up being attracted to someone who is similarly fearful of the opposite sex, which means they probably have their own issues or anger to deal with as well. So the way to end up with the "right" person is to simply not worry so much about ending up with the wrong person, and just go out there and live life to the fullest

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I sense some anger in your posts. That is ok. It is ok to be angry sometimes.

You will probably not like what i have to say now, but it is my honest opinion and i think a lot of people would agree with me. i think that when a person (guy or girl) makes the decision to drink, or do drugs, or in any way knowingly and willingly alters their own state of mind, especially in a social setting, they must be prepared for things to happen under poor judgment, including being seduced into sex and regretting it later.

One must know their own limitations. For example, i cannot tolerate very mich alcohol or drugs at all. I am skinny and very sensitive to things. So i know my limits and behave accordingly. A person who does not know their limits should experiment in safe settings where they know the chances of bad things happening will much lower.

Also, limiting one's dating to only people they feel "safe" around is likely to backfire. I do not mean to surround yourself with people who you think may physically harm you, but having a strong fear of ending up with the "wrong" person typically results in the fear being realized due to the strong emotional charge attached to it. The reason for this is that, just like magnets, you will end up being attracted to someone who is similarly fearful of the opposite sex, which means they probably have their own issues or anger to deal with as well. So the way to end up with the "right" person is to simply not worry so much about ending up with the wrong person, and just go out there and live life to the fullest

 

I was not seduced into sex. I TOLD THE GUY I DID NOT WANT TO HAVE SEX AND HE HAD SEX WITH ME ANYWAY. This is not a case of doing it and regretting it later. Just because I chose to drink that night does not mean I deserved for that to happen. You sound like you are a member of the "she asked for it' clan and I don't appreciate it. You either don't understand or are choosing to be ignorant instead of helpful. Either way, please stop responding to my post because you are really pi**ing me off now. If you really want to be helpful, do not reply to my post again.

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I sense some anger in your posts. That is ok. It is ok to be angry sometimes.

You will probably not like what i have to say now, but it is my honest opinion and i think a lot of people would agree with me. i think that when a person (guy or girl) makes the decision to drink, or do drugs, or in any way knowingly and willingly alters their own state of mind, especially in a social setting, they must be prepared for things to happen under poor judgment, including being seduced into sex and regretting it later.

One must know their own limitations. For example, i cannot tolerate very mich alcohol or drugs at all. I am skinny and very sensitive to things. So i know my limits and behave accordingly. A person who does not know their limits should experiment in safe settings where they know the chances of bad things happening will much lower.

Also, limiting one's dating to only people they feel "safe" around is likely to backfire. I do not mean to surround yourself with people who you think may physically harm you, but having a strong fear of ending up with the "wrong" person typically results in the fear being realized due to the strong emotional charge attached to it. The reason for this is that, just like magnets, you will end up being attracted to someone who is similarly fearful of the opposite sex, which means they probably have their own issues or anger to deal with as well. So the way to end up with the "right" person is to simply not worry so much about ending up with the wrong person, and just go out there and live life to the fullest

 

I was not seduced into sex. I TOLD THE GUY I DID NOT WANT TO HAVE SEX AND HE HAD SEX WITH ME ANYWAY. This is not a case of doing it and regretting it later. Just because I chose to drink that night does not mean I deserved for that to happen. You sound like you are a member of the "she asked for it' clan and I don't appreciate it. You either don't understand or are choosing to be ignorant instead of helpful. Either way, please stop responding to my post because you are really pi**ing me off now. If you really want to be helpful, do not reply to my post again.

Your response makes me really depressed. That is the same exact feeling that i feel about my whole life in general, whenever i do anything in society or try to get involved or help or anything, everyone just tells me to shutup, go away and disappear like i am worthless. It makes me want to **** myself because clearly no one wants me here, not even other depressed people. It is a big reason for MY posts here on depression forum, why i am here in the first place.

I do understand what you said and i am not ignorant and i am not trying to pi** you off. I am a good and smart person who read what you wrote and offered a helpful opinion. You may not like it but it is my opinion and it happens to be one that a lot of other people agree with. So you are free to ignore it if you want but do not tell me to go away, that is just rude.

The fact of the matter is that if you objected to sex and someone forced you to have sex despite your objections, then you should have called the police after since it might be rape. Did you scream? Why did you not call police ? There is a distinction between rape and poor judgment. If it was just poor judgment, then it is not the end of the world. Usually when people are drinking, they can do things they regret.

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Electric_blonde, sorry you had to experience this.  Unfortunately it happens and is still happening way to often.  A simple lack of empathy in human nature, and ignorance in general perpetuates the lousy behavior.  You did nothing wrong

 

You're rational in your concerns and seem very intelligent.  It might take a while to find someone worthy, but don't give up.  Especially on yourself.  Since someone brought up rape, I didn't scream or tell anyone for a long time either.  

 

It's good that you're coming to terms with your experience and can talk about it here.  That's the first step to moving on and enjoying a happy and fulfilling life.   :rose:

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Of course this is affecting you deeply. You might want to consider processing what happened with the help of your therapist, try to get past saying it affected you somewhat but feeling the need to post about it on a public forum where some people may jump to conclusions that because you didn't scream or call the police, then maybe you are pushing things a bit to think of it as rape. I know from experience that many people react badly to a story like yours. They just don't understand and apparently don't know that the vast majority of rapes don't get reported to the police. As far as screaming goes, I screamed my head off, don't know if that's why he beat me up, or if that was just part of his fun.

Take care of yourself, work with someone you trust, and if in the future you care to share what happened with someone else, be aware people will react badly, it's human nature, it's a crime that the victim gets blamed more often than not.

Good luck!

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I am not blaming anyone. No where did i say anyone deserved anything or that anyone was "asking for it". If anything, i support womens right to speak up, report abuse, and hold others accountable within the law. And i fully understand that many women do not speak up when they should after something truly tragic has happened.

I am trying to understand why, if someone forced another to have sex when they did not want it, why did the person then allow it to happen ? It just does not make any logical sense to me.

Electric_blonde said in first post that she did not want it and she told him that but when they were making out he "took it further". Well, if she did not want it, then why did she not just walk away ?

If the answer is "because she was drunk" and was in a more vulnerable state then that is a matter of impaired judgment on her part and you cannot completely hold the other person responsible especially if they were drinking too. People are responsible for their own actions and this includes drinking alcohol which everyone knows can impair judgment. No one is forcing anyone to drink alcohol and there is always the option to not drink. So there is an easy way to prevent these type of situations where "one thing led to another", and that is to not drink. Some people never drink alcohol. That will give a person the best opportunity to avoid being in uncomfortable situations.

Now, if the other person was sober and she was drunk, and she says no, i might expect the guy to have the sensibility to not take advantage of the situation, although even this scenario i think could be argued to be ok if the guy did not have bad intentions and just interpreted her signs of interest to the best of his ability-- women sometimes give mixed signals that confuse guys, everything short of screaming "NO" at the top of their lungs and trying to fight to run away.

I look at it like this. Many girls DO get drunk with the intention of just hooking up with a guy and they actually do want it to happen and they di not have any regrets afterward. So how can one differentiate between this scenario, and the prior scenario when the girl does NOT want it ? Well it is near impossible to differentiate and guys cannot read minds so to me these two scenarios are essentially equal in my mind.

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If you really want to be helpful, do not reply to my post again.

 

Sloth,

 

PLEASE STOP RESPONDING TO THIS THREAD. YOU WERE ASKED NICELY ONE, PLEASE RESPECT THIS MEMBERS WISHES AND STOP RESPONDING.

 

Do you have any idea how disgusting and repulsive I find your last comments? You should really go spend some time in a crisis center where women have been raped and their lives forever changed. I doubt very seriously that you have ANY personal information or first hand knowledge regarding victims of sexual crimes and what they endure or why they don't report it.

 

I highly suggest you take a class on manners and learn to shut your mouth when you don't know what you're talking about.

Edited by freckledface

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@electric_blonde

 

In my opinion you should try to put out yourself more, maybe join a dating site or send out more signals, because the memory of the though of "the curse" makes you put a wall around yourself and when you're going on a date with someone that's what they see "a wall." You just need to take it slow and if the guy you meet will be genuinely interested in you, he will be able to understand and willing to wait, to take it all in your time. Just because now it seems common to just do it in the first few dates days, doesn't mean it has to be that way. I was going out with my gf for half a year before we decided to do it and I was a virgin before that (at 26), sex brings a lot of complications into the relationship and it is better to wait and if you'll meet the right person, he will understand that and will be able to make you feel safe with him. You just need to give yourself a chance. Believe in yourself. There are a lot of jerks out there, but there are a lot of good guys too and right now one might just be looking for a girl like you. Just don't rush into something you don't want, just because someone says so or you are pressured by society, take it all in your own time and you will be fine. Cheers and good luck :)

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I was 23 and at a big party where I met my friend's cousin. I got drunk and made out with him, and then he led me away from everybody into a camper and had sex with me. I didn't want it, and I had told him that, but while we were making out in the camper he took it further and that was that.

 

Was he drunk too?

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You will probably not like what i have to say now, but it is my honest opinion and i think a lot of people would agree with me. i think that when a person (guy or girl) makes the decision to drink, or do drugs, or in any way knowingly and willingly alters their own state of mind, especially in a social setting, they must be prepared for things to happen under poor judgment, including being seduced into sex and regretting it later.

 

You should be aware of your state of mind and that you may make very poor decisions. But other people taking advantage and crimes occurring should ideally not be a thing one has to worry about.

 

It doesn't sound like she was "seduced". If he remained clear and got her "boozed" up, then it was very clearly a guy taking advantage of her. If they were both too drunk to think I'd say there likely is no blame here, just an unfortunate series of events. Not that it hurts any less.

 

I'd be careful not to jump onto the blame and finger pointing train, it gets ugly fast, especially with this topic. That goes for both sides of the argument.

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I was 23 and at a big party where I met my friend's cousin. I got drunk and made out with him, and then he led me away from everybody into a camper and had sex with me. I didn't want it, and I had told him that, but while we were making out in the camper he took it further and that was that.

 

Was he drunk too?

 

 

Some of the comments on this post make me sick. It does not matter if he was drunk/she was drunk/she didn't scream/she didn't report it...whatever! She said "no." That is where things should have ended. "Mixed signals" (really upsetting to read that) or not. The fact that the victim often gets blamed in this situation is exactly why these crimes go unreported.

 

Electric_blonde: I'm really sorry this happened to you. Please try to remember that you are the victim, despite some of the disturbing comments you've received here. The fact that you need to defend yourself on this forum and in real life is unacceptable. You deserve peace and happiness, and I hope you are able to find it is some way.

Edited by CallaLily

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I was 23 and at a big party where I met my friend's cousin. I got drunk and made out with him, and then he led me away from everybody into a camper and had sex with me. I didn't want it, and I had told him that, but while we were making out in the camper he took it further and that was that.

 

Was he drunk too?

 

 

Some of the comments on this post make me sick. It does not matter if he was drunk/she was drunk/she didn't scream/she didn't report it...whatever! She said "no." That is where things should have ended. "Mixed signals" (really upsetting to read that) or not. The fact that the victim often gets blamed in this situation is exactly why these crimes go unreported.

 

The question is not if she is a victim. It's if he knowingly took advantage of her, which would make him a rapist.

 

This is what I'm talking about in my second post. People get aggressive way too quickly.

Edited by SenorDomino

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I was 23 and at a big party where I met my friend's cousin. I got drunk and made out with him, and then he led me away from everybody into a camper and had sex with me. I didn't want it, and I had told him that, but while we were making out in the camper he took it further and that was that.

 

Was he drunk too?

 

 

Some of the comments on this post make me sick. It does not matter if he was drunk/she was drunk/she didn't scream/she didn't report it...whatever! She said "no." That is where things should have ended. "Mixed signals" (really upsetting to read that) or not. The fact that the victim often gets blamed in this situation is exactly why these crimes go unreported.

 

The question is not if she is a victim. It's if he knowingly took advantage of her, which would make him a rapist.

 

 

He is. She said "no" and he didn't stop.

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I did not come here to go over the details of that terrible evening. I did not come here to discuss whether or not he was drunk, or how drunk he was, or if I screamed, or if I called police. I did not come here to learn the definition of a rapist or to satisfy someone's curiosity if I was actually taken advantage of or not. I know what happened. I don't need to go over the play-by-play with anybody here. I came here for support for the way I am feeling today. I am trying to move forward and try to get comfortable with dating again. That was the point of this post. If you are not here to try and assist with that, then get lost.

Edited by Guest

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Am I the only guy reading this thread that thinks, the other guys on here are complete idiots?!?!  Please do not lump me into a group with these men.  I can't relate to their chain of thought...& they don't speak for all of us!! 

EB I am sorry for what you experienced.  Not all men out there would treat you that way...unfortunately you found an a-hole that does.  It really does appear that it has effected you in ways you may not have realized.  Hopefully you will be able to work through whatever is blocking you so you can get back out there!  Love is a wonderful thing.  When you have that certain someone to love  hold or be held, it is the greatest feeling in the world.  Don't give up or lose hope, it will come your way.

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Electric blonde,

I'm so sorry this happened to you.  I'm not at all qualified to suggest how it may have impacted you, but I can share my experience of how it impacted me in hopes that it will help you.  There are so many differect facets of how it changed my life that I'll try to keep it brief.

 

First of all, I trusted this person (he was my step dad), so I felt as if I couldn't trust my own judgement and couldn't date unless I was smashed which posed a problem after I got sober.  I then got into a relationship with an unsafe man because, according to my therapist, unsafe people were familiar.

 

Secondly, I had a hard time calling what he did to me rape because I dissociated, was only thirteen, so when asked if I was raped I said no because I didn't know what that meant and I feared falsly accusing him.  I shouldered the brunt of the blame for what happened until many years later when I was both old enough and sober enough to understand.  So, my self esteem was rocked becase of it.  My family was torn apart, too, so I felt responsible for what happened.  My own Mother blamed me.  I was in my fourties before I had the courage to confront her.  She said she had resented me for all of those years because my step dad was "in love" with me.  So gross.

 

There's so much more to say, but what I really want to convey to you is that you can heal from this trauma.  I get the whole thing about how you thought the therapist made a big deal of it.  I thought that way too and in hindsight it was a way for me to protect myself from the true pain of it all and she helped me see that I wouldn't have dissocotiated had it not been traumatic.  She also helped me understand that my initail reaction, which was promiscuous behavior with unsafe men was related to being raped.  It's my understanding that people mostly shoot off in one direction, abstinence, or the other.  Not always, but sometimes. 

 

I went through EMDR therapy and can honestly say I'm no longer troubled by what happened.  I still have man problems galore though.  Ha.  I just think there are layers upon layers to get to as a result of this sort of situation. 

 

Wishing you the best.

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Am I the only guy reading this thread that thinks, the other guys on here are complete idiots?!?!  Please do not lump me into a group with these men.  I can't relate to their chain of thought...& they don't speak for all of us!! 

 

For your interest, I was trying to calm the increasing hostility in this thread. But by all means, go on the attack.

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