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Everything posted by FeelinBlueAllTheTime

  1. RSLBrandt...I'm sorry you are dealing with this. It sounds like you're in a lot of pain. I'm much older than you (sounds like you are still in school) and I STILL feel that way. So you're not alone. Despite how you feel, you are not "disappointing" or "embarrassing" or "awful". You just happen to be in a family where you don't fit in and there is a lot of pressure to succeed or be something you aren't. Again, I can relate...my own family treats me this way. It explains my low self-esteem and lack of confidence, because they have never really believed in me. I wish I had a family that truly loved and accepted me for who I am, but I am unlucky, so... I know you feel uncomfortable with talking to your parents about this, but could you try? Maybe if you talk to one or both of them, it might help. I could never talk to my mother about anything when I had a problem but you never know...your parents might listen if you try to talk to them. I don't advise running away because that won't fix anything. It might even make your problems worse. Take it from me...I went through hell growing up in an environment where I was abused, misunderstood, and made to feel different (in a bad way) from everybody else. I didn't run away but I often wanted to. Instead I made some really bad choices because I was so unhappy and felt alone and had no one to talk to. Some parents have unrealistic expectations and this can cause a lot of problems. I remember doing a project back in high school many years ago, working hard on it, and my stepfather called it a "piece of sh*t". He is NOT a nice person and much of his behavior was aimed at making me feel bad about myself. Nothing I did ever satisfied him. He was constantly putting me down. I hope your parents are better people than that. I think you should try telling your parents what you've said here...that you feel unloved and like you're a disappointment to them. You never know, they might actually be surprised that you feel this way. You won't know unless you try talking to them.
  2. Hi Marius...really sorry that you're going through this. Maybe you could try therapy. If you're lucky, you might find a good therapist who can help you. There is never any shame in reaching out for help or wanting to improve your life. And you're not alone...most of us on this site struggle with depression (it IS Depression Forums after all ) so we're pretty much in the same boat. As to your relationship woes...all I can say is that at 26, you are still very young. There is still plenty of time to meet other girls. I will say, though, that hating women won't help you find a girlfriend. Just some advice from a girl...take it for what it's worth. Also, I can relate to feeling that life sucks and is unfair. A lot of that IS true...but some of it might also be from depression and feeling like we can't change our circumstances. I would at least try therapy if I were you. It can't hurt to try, and you can always "shop around" if you don't like the first or second or even third therapist. Take care
  3. I'm pretty late in responding to this, so I'll keep it short if I can. I've learned not to share my problems with others because of the hurtful reactions I've often received outside of this forum, in real life. Most of the time now, if somebody asks why I'm depressed, I refuse to talk about it. I can tell that they asking because they want to judge...not to truly understand. So I figure that if I keep it to myself (no matter how much it hurts) I can spare myself from further pain and misunderstanding from others. One way you can look at it is this...if you know that you suffer from depression, you don't need others to believe it. You don't need to convince anyone of what you are dealing with because YOU know it. There are often people who try to deny my reality or tell me that my feelings/experiences aren't real, but they are wrong. It used to bother me but now I see that I don't need to convince them of anything or prove anything to them. I know for a fact that I have depression and that certain things have contributed to it. I don't care if anyone believes that or not. What I'm more concerned with is how to overcome it and heal and live a better life, even though I'm going through a tough time again.
  4. Also, I have to add this...being a woman is magical, even with all the BS we deal with. No disrespect to the dudes here (you guys are awesome!) but there's just something cool about being a girl, despite what society says. I hope no one takes offense to that. Furthermore, Chubby...I can relate to what this treatment has done to you. Being called "ugly" and having my confidence destroyed at an early age has affected me for most of my life. Not only that, it was miserable to grow up with ZERO affirmation and positive reinforcement as a young girl. We need that because the world isn't a kind place. I had an abusive stepfather, abusive boyfriends, constantly had to deal with racism because I looked different, there was favoritism within my family toward a certain relative, etc. There is a lot of pressure to look and act a certain way. If you meet the approved standards of others, you will be accepted and treated well. If you don't, you risk being bullied, mistreated, and isolated. As I continue getting older I feel even more self-conscious about my appearance and how others perceive me; I know that much of this anxiety has to do with the way I've been treated. Sometimes I feel bad because I gained weight but then I realize that this feeling comes from the toxic attitudes of others. I'm not in my teens or twenties anymore. I'm older now, with a shift in hormones and certain issues that make it more difficult to lose weight. So while I would love to be that 21-year-old girl again with the tight little body I once had, it won't happen. I have to work on trying to love myself and being kind to myself despite the harsh words and dirty looks that others throw at me. This is what I wish for ALL women and even some men who may be struggling with a poor self-image due to bullying.
  5. Hi Chubby...hope all is well! I hear you and I understand where you're coming from. People can be very cruel; that is an unfortunate fact of life. I was always a target of extreme bullying growing up, even within my own family and even from a couple of boyfriends I had. Back then I was thin and pretty, but the way I was treated convinced me that I was ugly/inferior/subhuman, etc. Now I am overweight and still battling low self-esteem. I agree wholeheartedly with you and Lauryn. The world would be a much better place if everyone would be kind. Sadly we live in a world where many people seem to feel better by stepping on others and hurting others. They don't care how their actions can affect others. What I notice about men (and some women) who express hateful, misogynist views is that they are often immature. They fail to understand that people should be treated with respect no matter their appearance, race, gender, etc. It reminds me of bullies who never grew up. And I know you mentioned that men have done this to you but I've encountered just as many nasty women who have commented on my looks in a hurtful way. I remember just a few years ago, this girl screamed across a parking lot that I was FAT! The memory still hurts because I didn't do anything to her but she felt the need to insult a complete stranger. As to the MGTOW crowd, the same applies to them...just a bunch of broken, insecure losers who find it more productive to bash women in general when they could be doing something with their own lives. Sometimes they do it because they feel that women have rejected them. Or they do it because they learned that behavior from other males like their fathers, brothers, friends, etc. I wouldn't really consider myself a "feminist" per se, but as a woman, I care very much about the rights of women and humanity in general. So maybe that does make me a feminist? Not sure. But yes, people can be horrible. We should try to remember that it's never about us. If somebody is acting ugly, THEY are the ugly one, not you.
  6. No, it's cool if you talk about the job issue. Truth be told I need a purpose to my life as well...we all do. A lot of people assume that because I'm a housewife that I'm just a useless waste of space. But there are reasons for why things are the way they are. You asked if my husband always had this problem with intimacy...not at all! When we first met, I was in my early twenties and he was in his late 30's. He couldn't keep his hands off me back then. I was thin and very pretty, but I didn't realize it because of my low self-esteem. I was in a VERY abusive relationship before I met him. I also came from a home where my stepfather abused me. My husband kind of "rescued" me from that. I think that some of the intimacy issues can be explained. His job is stressful, so I can understand how that would ruin the mood. There is also the problem of my weight gain, which was caused by a condition I developed a few years ago that makes it difficult to keep the pounds off. I'm about 40 or 50 lbs. overweight. He isn't mean about it, but I know he prefers women that look a certain way (although he denies it). There is also the fact that he was raised by an overly religious mother who won't even let us sleep in the same bed when we visit her. So you may be right...there is probably more to it. The journal idea with your boyfriend sounds like a good idea. I really hope you guys can make things work; I have a feeling you can do it!
  7. I hear you, standup. The only "new" change I've made is attempting therapy again. Other than that, I feel hopeless and unable to do anything anymore. I'm not getting any younger either. And yes, the Internet is an escape sometimes but it can also keep us from being productive.
  8. Wow Chubby...it's crazy how much I relate to this post! You sound like a really nice person; I would want to be your friend in real life. I hate to say it because it sounds like misery loves company, but it gives me some comfort that I'm not the only one living in isolation and loneliness without a job or friends. Unlike you, I'm an introvert but there are often times when I feel really sad due to a lack of real human connection. And you're right...it isn't healthy to have a long period of isolation, plus sitting all the time is bad for us. I don't go to the mall by myself anymore because of crowds, anxiety, and other issues. Which is sad because I used to love shopping and just walking around. I've been at home all day too. I haven't even showered or brushed my teeth yet...ugh! Since 2014 my depression returned and I'm just trying to fight it. And yes, I can also relate to the part about trying to talk to people and be nice, only to have them act strangely towards you. I honestly thought I was the only one who experienced this. I just wish I could have a normal life for once.
  9. At least you have a great sense of humor about it, Chubby... Yes, I've been married for several years and we don't have children because my husband doesn't want them. He never told me that before we were married, despite knowing that I wanted a family. And in order to have kids, you need to have sex, which hardly ever happens... To answer your question, we don't do "other stuff". I wish he would at least be open to other things, but no. It makes me feel ugly and unwanted...and my self-esteem has pretty much been low all my life, even when I was thinner and more attractive. It hurts because I love him so much and I just want to share myself with him in that way. But one time he called me "selfish". Hmm...wanting to make love to my husband is selfish? I never understood that. Selfish (in my view) is rejecting your wife repeatedly and refusing to discuss children or anything that could improve your relationship. But anyway, back to you... yeah, at least you are willing to try. Just don't feel pressured into anything that makes you uncomfortable. Also, not everyone has pain when it happens, so hopefully you might be lucky in that area.
  10. 1. Like quicksand...I continue to sink further and further, unable to climb out. 2. Like drowning in very deep water...I can't swim to safety because the shore is too far away and I'm tired.
  11. Agreed, Lauryn...and OUCH! to the hymen cutting. But it could be a solution. As for me, I'm in a sexless marriage and it is very lonely at times to feel like my husband doesn't want me. He is a great guy otherwise but it does hurt to be rejected sexually when I flirt or make advances to him. Sometimes it makes me feel even more unattractive and I'm too young to deal with this for the rest of my life. But I guess there are complicated reasons for why one partner in a relationship might withhold sex.
  12. It sounds like there is a lot more to this than you not having a job. By the way, I am a housewife (without children) and I contribute to my marriage...just for anyone who believes that being unemployed means "taking advantage" of others. We live in a society and an era where being a stay-at-home wife (or girlfriend in your case) is often looked at with disdain, because having a career outside of the home is what is valued now. We all have to choose the path that's right for us in the end as individuals. On the sex issue, I had a friend years ago with the same problem. She was afraid to be intimate with anyone because she thought there would be pain, blood, etc. It really depends on the person and whether your partner is understanding of your fears. Hopefully you can talk to him about this and you can work things out.
  13. So I decided to give therapy another chance...yesterday I had my first session with a new therapist. It went surprisingly well! She listened and really seems to care. Hopefully I can work through a lot of this stuff I'm dealing with, both past and present.
  14. So my original post disappeared, but I'll try again. I can't say if your boyfriend is emotionally abusive, but it doesn't sound like he is very nice to you. Based on what you've said here, there ARE some red flags: 1. Constant criticism and finding fault with you. It's normal to occasionally criticize but when it becomes a constant pattern where you are made to feel like you can't do anything right, that may be a problem. 2. Overreacting to minor things (the incident with the pans and the cutting board); fits of anger; making you feel afraid to express yourself. 3. Blaming, accusing, and belittling...he seems to do a lot of this. There seems to be a lot of focus on what YOU are doing wrong instead of trying to work together as a team to solve issues. He isn't perfect and I'm sure that there are things he needs to change as well. 4. His statement about being capable of violence is troubling, especially if he says that often.
  15. I agree that if somebody gave you a chance, they would indeed enjoy talking to you! I don't even know you and you seem like a pretty cool dude. Making conversation is an art. Some people have a natural ability to talk to anyone with ease, but for some of us, we have to practice. I know what you mean about online conversations being a little bit easier because of the anonymity factor. I'm very shy and awkward in real life and I'm much older than you. But if I feel comfortable with somebody, I become a slightly different version of myself. Maybe that could be true for you too, if you had the chance to meet people you connected with. I understand your need to find a partner out of the desire to love and be loved. As humans, we need a sense of belonging and acceptance. I think it would really help you to have that in your life. Maybe this is another reason to consider going back to school...you never know who you might meet.
  16. Hermitic...I've finally had the chance to read your story. I'm sorry you've been through so much. Like I said in the other thread, you are so smart and thoughtful, wise beyond your years. Many of us here can relate somewhat because we also have had painful experiences growing up. Yes, motivation is good. Maybe if you go back to school this will help with a lot of things.
  17. @Hermitic...I've enjoyed talking with you, too. You really are an intelligent and thoughtful person. I share your views on some things as well and it makes me sad the way things are sometimes. It's hard to keep our faith in humanity when so much is wrong with the world. My heart goes out to you. Loneliness is one of the worst feelings, isn't it? I take it that your parents probably aren't very affectionate with you either based on what you said about no physical contact. Everyone needs to feel that they are loved...it is almost as important as food and the air we breathe. We all need kind words, a smile, a hug, or something to make life a bit more worthwhile. I wondered about Asperger's because I understand some of the social struggles you've had and it is a possibility. I grew up feeling alienated by nearly everyone around me, including my own family. I will read your back story as soon as I have the chance. Now that you've shared so much of yourself, I can see how difficult it is for you to find people who "get" you. I think you'll find that some of us here on DF have similar issues when it comes to creating friendships and relationships with others. And don't worry...you will meet other girls like the girl you saw that day. She's not the only one. You have nothing to lose by making the first move and saying hello. You never know what might come of it. Sometimes we have to take chances in life. Also, and this is just my opinion, dating sites aren't really a good idea. They can be somewhat sleazy. I find it better to try meeting people in places like coffee shops or bookstores. That's just me, though. Please take care of yourself and don't be discouraged. Life will knock us down many times but we can't let it beat us.
  18. Also, my heart goes out to you. It sounds like your upbringing caused a real struggle for you in some ways. My husband is also atheist, raised by conservative/religious parents from the Deep South. Sometimes he still has issues around this. I think that no matter what culture or religion a person is brought up in, parents can screw children up if they aren't careful. You made a lot of valid points about how beauty and being overtly sexy is viewed in our society. Since you were raised in a conservative home, I can see why this would cause inner conflict for you as a young man. On the one hand, you saw your sister being forced to wear makeup as if her natural looks weren't good enough. On the other hand, you find yourself somewhat attracted to women in revealing outfits (and some religions teach us that sexual desires are sinful). I tried to frame my earlier post in terms of why women wear these clothes, so you could have a deeper understanding of the pressures we often face to look a certain way, and how damaging it is. We are often trained to define ourselves based on what others think of us. Most women don't come out of the womb feeling bad about ourselves. It is taught by society while we are little girls. It is a type of brainwashing. And in a way, it goes back to what I was trying to say about how you felt the need to describe your ideal girl as being thin, white, etc...that is something that society also pushes on millions of girls who do NOT look that way. I know you were only describing the kind of girl you like, but it is also an ideal that has hurt people who have been automatically excluded for not being Caucasian or having certain features. The issue of self-esteem, beauty, and sexuality runs deep for many girls/women. On the surface it might be frustrating to see women receiving attention for their looks and sex appeal or their revealing outfits, but there is much more to it. We are told on many levels that there is power in being sexy and looking pretty. It is still a man's world, no matter how far we've come. You talked about on seeing women on dating sites receiving more messages than men do. OK...that's a fair point. I think that in many cases, women don't have to try as hard to get male attention. But to rewind back to the racial issue, let me share something with you. Did you know that on many dating sites, Black women are often excluded? No one will give them a chance simply because of their race. They could be smart, funny, sweet and gorgeous, yet certain people will reject them (even be cruel to them online) because they are not white or even some other more "acceptable" minority like Asian, for example. Think about that for a minute. There are actual studies to back this up. It shows that there are indeed issues when a person is immediately rejected for being the "wrong" race. Never mind their other good qualities...nope, they have the wrong color and the wrong type of hair. I'm not saying this applies to you or that you are racist, but this is something to keep in mind. About the girl you saw with acne...it sounds like you found her attractive because she wasn't trying to hide her flaws. Maybe she was confident despite having skin that wasn't smooth and clear. It could have been her "realness" and confidence that you found refreshing in a world where people are always trying to be what they aren't. And since you have acne yourself, it might have been a relief to see somebody else (esp. a girl) with less than perfect skin, who wasn't trying to cover it up like so many people do.
  19. So it's not a preference or a choice...cool. So then what's the issue? Like what you like. No one will condemn you for that. If you've accepted that this is just the way you are, what's the problem? Other people will find certain women attractive even if you don't. It's not the end of the world. No need to explain. Don't think about it too much. As to the conversation, if you are uncomfortable with sharing, I understand. Being rejected is hard, esp. if you feel like you did nothing wrong. Maybe there was some misunderstanding or maybe she just wasn't into you. What I've learned is that other people's actions are hardly ever as personal as they seem. She might have found the question strange or there was something about you that she found off-putting. Without knowing either one of you, I can't say which it is. Please try not to take it to heart. In life, you will meet people who reject you or dislike you for all kinds of reasons and sometimes for no reason at all. It hurts but you have to accept this and move on. There WILL be people whom you will "click" with and they won't reject you. It just takes more time for some of us to find others we can connect with. I'm in the same boat as you. People have always treated me that way but the older I get, the more I see that their behavior isn't about me. Do you have Asperger's by chance? Don't be offended...I ask because people with AS often find themselves in situations where they are misunderstood by others. I am on the spectrum myself and I've had people react in unexpected ways to things I've said, then get more angry when I tried to apologize or find out what I did to make them mad.
  20. I see both sides of this debate. Some guys simply don't like when a woman wears revealing clothes, for many different reasons. Religion might play a part for some people but it could also be that they like a girl who leaves something to the imagination instead of showing it all off. Maybe Hermitic wants his future lady to be a bit mysterious? Then you have guys who LOVE it when a woman wears very little clothing. Some even want their wives or girlfriends to look that way all the time, including in places where it might be inappropriate like a funeral. I had a boyfriend years ago who wanted me to look overly sexy with the short skirts, high heels and all that. I did it to make him happy but he didn't treat me very well...he was also jealous when other guys noticed me. Now that I am older and my figure is very different from what it used to be, I carry myself in a different way. I try to aim for a look that is sexy AND classy these days. I like to look pretty, but I also don't want to attract the wrong attention. Hermitic, you asked why women wear certain clothes and objectify themselves. Not speaking for all women here, but I think it happens for different reasons. 1. Climate...when the weather is very hot, it is much cooler to wear clothing that shows more skin. Jeans/long pants aren't comfortable when it is 95 degrees or higher. I learned this the hard way a few years ago. 2. To be trendy or fit in with others. 3. Attention...society tells girls and women that our worth is in beauty and sexuality, yet it also punishes us for those things. We live in a world where this has always been true. Social media drives this as well. If you look at Instagram and Facebook, you will see many women with pictures of themselves in skimpy clothing, trying to look "sexy" or what they think is sexy. No one wants to be ignored or to feel unattractive. There is a LOT of competition for partners, jobs, friends, etc. I have a relative who is pushing 40 years old and still engages in this behavior. 4. Self-esteem...this could be either high or low depending on the woman. Some women are seeking attention because they don't feel pretty enough, and then you have the ones who have the "if you've got it, flaunt it" attitude. 5. Some women might have lost a lot of weight through hard work and they are proud of the results. They're not necessarily trying to attract anyone, they just want to show that they're in shape and maybe inspire others. I know that in the past, I wanted to be noticed and liked by guys because I felt terrible about myself (result of bullying and a neglectful, somewhat abusive upbringing). So when I was about 18 and started looking better, I wore clothes that showed off my figure. It was a way of trying to find the love and validation I needed. And let's be honest...many guys ignore girls they don't find attractive or sexy. When guys started calling me beautiful and wanting to take me on dates, it was like a new world opened up. I attracted a lot of very bad people too, but there were also people who were nice to me for the first time because they thought I was pretty. It was a change from being the ugly girl with no friends. So THAT is also part of why some women carry themselves in a certain way.
  21. OK...now you've given us something more to work with. Thanks for clarifying. I don't think you should feel bad if you aren't attracted to women of different races. That in itself doesn't make you a racist or hateful person. Again, I will be honest that I find it odd when people state that they can ONLY be attracted to those of the same race, but I don't judge. If that's your preference, it's cool. No harm done. I feel like there is some sense of shame or guilt on your part, however. There is nothing wrong with you, a white guy, preferring to date white females. There are plenty of white men (and other types of men) who love non-white women so there is really nothing to feel bad about. Plenty of white guys are into Black girls, Asian girls, and so on. As to the few who aren't? It doesn't matter. Variety is the spice of life and there is somebody for everybody. That is the beauty of it all. Now something you said has my interest..."I was often frustrated by people who refused to speak to me because of my diction". Could you tell us a bit more about this? I find that sometimes if there is a problem with communication, things can be misunderstood. Maybe that is why she reacted in that way. Can you share what happened? You don't have to if you don't want to.
  22. I also have a question...would you be afraid of what your friends and family would say if you were to date a person of another race? I know that for some people, this is partly what holds them back.
  23. @Hermitic...point taken. But if you are not attracted to women of other races (including Black women) why make a thread about it? Why not just like what you like, without needing to explain it to anyone? If you prefer your own race, just leave it at that. There are plenty of white girls to pick and choose from. Please don't take that the wrong way. I'm just curious about people who want attention/dates from the opposite sex, but have a very narrow criteria for what they find acceptable. Seems to me that if a person is attractive and fun to be with, their race becomes a minor issue in the scheme of things. But I also understand that not everyone is willing to try interracial dating for their own reasons. That's your choice and I respect that. Like I prefer tall men, usually 6 ft. and above. My husband is 6'4". Many women like men on the taller side. However, I have found shorter men attractive on occasion. That's a bit different from the racial issue, though. As scienceguy (and myself) both stated, women are women...we all have the same parts. Black women and white women are very different in some ways, that can't be denied. But when you think about it, we belong to the same species, both human and female. It's not like a dog and a cat or the difference between a cow and an alligator, LOL. Also, there are Black women (and other races of women) who are very light-skinned because of mixing in their ancestry. Just like there are white women with different hair colors and eye colors, the same can happen with other races. There are also different personality types as well. One Black woman might be loud, another might be more introverted and quiet. I've learned to avoid stereotyping people or placing limitations on them, perhaps because of the stereotyping I've experienced as a person of mixed race. And fair enough if you aren't turned on by non-white women...again, your preference and your choice. You don't have to find a Black or Asian or Indian woman attractive. But you, yourself have admitted your own obstacles in getting a well-paying job...a quality most women seek in a man. So why hold somebody else to an impossibly high standard in terms of looks, race, etc? I'm sure you wouldn't want a girl who rejects you based on what you do for work or any other quality you have, for that matter. Again, I don't wish to offend you. Just wanting to dialogue a little. I mean no disrespect at all. This is just a subject I find interesting.
  24. OK, so I've been reading this thread and I'd like to share my thoughts... First, preferences are natural. Some people are more attracted to certain "types". And if you prefer women of your own background, there is nothing wrong with that. People tend to find comfort in what is familiar and similar to themselves. So no, I don't think you are racist. However, I will ask you to consider why you have all these "requirements" for a future partner...it seems just a bit unrealistic. I agree with scienceguy that there are MANY different types of women out there. This idea that only white women are beautiful is false and hurtful. Yes, some white women are very pretty but so are other types of women. Society has promoted this view of white females being the most beautiful at the expense of non-white women, to be honest. I am a woman of mixed race (black and white) who is married to a white man. From the ages of 18-24, I was considered a VERY pretty girl. Yet growing up, I was bullied due to the racism of others and it damaged my self-esteem. Being rejected and called ugly for not being white hurts. I am older now and health issues have ruined my looks, so I focus more on being kind to others than looking "hot" these days. If you should happen to find the girl of your dreams, that will be wonderful. But if not, don't worry. Just keep an open mind and remember to keep your eyes open for other types of women whom you might otherwise overlook. Sometimes we miss out on knowing some great people because we fail to see anything positive about them, and we're too focused on a specific type instead. My husband grew up preferring white women with blonde hair (like I said, he is also white). Yet he married me...a biracial woman with dark hair and exotic features. He thought I was attractive when we met, but I wasn't the Maria Sharapova type of girl he used to like. If we hadn't given one another a chance, we both would have missed out on some awesome experiences we've shared. Furthermore, you are still very young. A bit more life experience will help you to understand certain things a little bit better as time goes by. You sound like a very intelligent guy...you just need more life experience. As for your degree, I went through the same thing at your age. I understand your frustration. It took a LOT of hard work to finish school. I was constantly studying for what felt like an eternity. It was torture. But I finally finished and although finding steady employment is/was difficult, you can't give up. It will be worth it, I promise. Having an education and skills is VERY important in today's world. You will make it...I have faith in you.
  25. Yeah, I feel you...I'm scared to death by what is going on. I think we also have a more acute sense of anxiety as it is, so it feels like there is no hope of things getting better. The world has always been an unsafe place but it seems to be worsening more and more. I've been trying to avoid the news because it only adds to my fear, anxiety and depression. I know I can't hide from reality, though...
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