chumly

Just curious to know...for those of you that are still in contact with you narc and/or toxic parent(s) do you close messages to them using the “ love” salutation even if you are uncertain if you mean it? Thanks

Very true! I can totally see that happening too. My mom is very good at getting strangers to like her and see her ways. I also dont want to see her now anyway. The thought of doing so is almost sickening to be honest. Anyway, thanks for your terrific insight as well!

It is funny that you mentioned that because I am a bit fearful of that myself. I am fearful of not getting a good therapist and than on top of that I think you make a good point of it needing to be with someone that if familiar with narcs too. I would not want someone with those "old school" ideas that would somehow lead me back to more abuse by her. I have also had sooo many lousy therapists in the past BUT I figured I would try this route one last time. I guess if I dont feel it is helpful I can just quit. I also agree about not going to a family therapist. My mom would love nothing more than to see me again and I am sure she would just use that as an excuse to see me and try and manipulate me to have her back in my life. Right now I am enjoying the stress free life I am living without her so I really dont want to mess that up by seeing her again. I really dont miss her at all to be honest and as you said, she would likely just pretend to be nice to save face anyway. Thanks so much for sharing your insight with me on all of this! It is very much appreciated!

So true!!! Yes, she is like a Dr. Jekyl/Mr Hyde. I have actually used that to describe her others time too by the way! It is such an interesting insight that you offer! I really like your analogy too!! I do feel like when my mom is nice it is a bit like a kid in a way...something just feels fake about it and that is probably because it is not the real her..as you suggested. I was thinking to myself why I tolerated her BS for so long. I think there are a number of reasons..including just loneliness and feeling like I "have to" because it is my mom...but no time can be so lonely and no situation can be so bad that I need to tolerate abuse. If she was a friend I would have dropped her long ago so why do I feel like I need to make an exception with her? Anyway, thanks so much for this great insight! It is very much appreciated!

Thanks so much for the book recommendation! I will definitely look into that one. It sounds so interesting! I definitely feel like most of the traits that are considered signs of a narc resonate with my mom. Some more so than others but probably the majority of them to at least a certain extent. I am so sorry that your mom has done that to you and your sister! My mom has done things in public to me as well so I can really relate! I agree that if a person is not careful around a person like this it can really affect ones mind! ..so true!

Thankyou so much! This is so true and thanks very much for reminding me of that too!

Thanks so much for the terrific insight! To be honest...I did not know much about narcissisms until this latest blow out of hers that made me really want to figure out what the problem was...so understanding narcissism is still rather new to me. I always just viewed her as extremely difficult but than after researching more about the topic I realized that my mom really does have quite a few traits too...maybe in alot of ways she has all of them in fact.:( Wow! Your mom really does sound like my mom with the money thing and using it as a way to hold something over you. My mom does that to me and/or my sister! It is really disgusting and I am so sorry that you are having to go through that yourself! I was diagnosed with OCD and I am thinking that it was likely due to be raised by such a disturbed person. My dad was not a narc but he was completely neglectful and did not help matters either. I also read that kids of narc parents have problems making decisions and that is so true about me too! Well, thanks so much for taking the time out to read my long post and offer insight! It is great to finally be able to relate to others about this. It is ashame that we have to relate in such a disturbing way BUT I think it helps to know that a person can have a narc parent and still live a very happy and sane life regardless. Just out of curiosity...do you seek professional help to discuss your situation? I am currently waiting for a therapist to become available for me and I am hoping that I will get a good one that can really help me with this whole situation. For the time being I have distanced myself from her and I am hoping the therapist will help me figure out my next step after this. Anyway, thanks so much for such terrific insight! I really appreciate all this great advice! Thanks again!

I discussed my mom on here before and just typing it out was very therapeutic but I think due to it being a very very long post it was probably too overwhelming for most people to read and comment on, as I was hoping so I figured I’d see if I can put together a more condensed version of the situation with my mom that will hopefully be more reader friendly and hopefully generate some feedback... Anyway, I’m trying to figure out what my moms issue is. I know that someone on here said that the diagnosis does not totally matter and that’s probably very true but I’m actually wondering if she might be even beyond narcissistic and her issues are perhaps more along the lines of being mentally unstable and perhaps bipolar and/or schizophrenic? I’m also wondering if maybe I’m really at fault and I’m maybe just not seeing it? I don’t have too many friends that I trust enough to advise me on this and I’m in the midst of trying to get professional help but in the meantime I can use some advice and this site has always served me well up to now... So with all that said.....in an effort to try and understand what my moms situation might be I have researched a bit on narc traits and signs to look for. I also researched other possible mental conditions, such as schizophrenia and bipolar too ...and while she does exhibit signs of all of them she does not neatly fit into any one particular one totally. However, the signs she has of some of these traits are in an overwhelming abundance! My moms main negative traits are that she is extremely argumentative and will pick a fight with anybody about anything at seemingly unexpected times with no provocations from anybody. She also NEVER apologizes or admits fault either. She only apologized to me twice in all my years on the planet. ..but yet she has picked fights with me countless times. The strange part about her fight picking though is that it almost appears to me that she does so in an almost “trans- like” state, where she will sometimes appear to almost snap out of it after a short while. On the other hand, she can be very sweet and nice. She’s extremely generous with me and others and she has given me cars, treated me on vacations, bought me computers, etc... She has many good friends too so apparently some people find her likable despite these negative traits. Anyway, currently I have separated myself from her. Her last outburst was the worst one yet! Me and a friend of mine were living with her rent free after she was diagnosed with a very treatable cancer. My mom convinced me to refrain from resigning the lease at my apartment at the time that I was sharing with this friend. The deal was that me and my friend could stay with her rent free in exchange for taking her to her countless Drs appts and doing chores for her. She seemed to have a different perspective on life after her diagnosis and she seemed less controversial and easier to deal with so I allowed her and my friend to talk me into doing this despite my serious reservations about it. Anyway, it went quite well for the first few months. She would repeatedly express how appreciative she was for what me and my friend were doing for her and how she felt she would have never gotten through her cancer treatments without us. It almost seemed too good to be true...but as treatments lead her to renewed health an energy it also lead to her slowly going back to her argumentative ways. It finally came to a head when my mom started once again bringing up politics to my friend ( her favorite topic to talk about since it starts fights)...and my mom became so upset that my friend finally expressed a different viewpoint than her own that she kicked him out of her house during the start of the pandemic shutdown! And when I came to his defense she kicked me out as well! A huge fight broke out and me and my friend stormed out and moved into a hotel and then eventually a new apartment. My mom did blow up my phone about 30 minutes after she kicked us out to try to patch things up and to try and get me to return and then eventually ( the next day) she said my friend can return too...but I have been letting all her messages go to voicemail and as always with her there was never an apology for throwing us out in the first place! And doing so for simply disagreeing with her about politics no less! I mean, what kind of person treats others this way! Especially after all we did for her! I’m still in a state of shock! Anyway, I decided for my own mental health that it would probably be best that I don’t check any of her messages for a while and not deal with her for a while since it was causing me too much stress when I did. It’s been about 8 months now and I still don’t talk to her and she does not have my new address but she’s been sending me messages since that time to try and patch things up...but based on info I received from my sister I suspect there is still no apology from her. Anyway, I know this was long once again but it was difficult to make all this shorter. I would love to get feedback from others on what they think the issue is with my mom? Does she sound like a narc to you? Or maybe unstable? Perhaps bipolar or schizophrenic? Or does it sound like I was in the wrong in any way? I am very open to hearing if I was wrong in any way? Despite adding some remarks...I did try to explain the situation as impartially as I could. If you were in my shoes would you also take a break from her as well? Or maybe perhaps cut her out all together? Thanks in advance for any thoughts on this.

Thanks so much! I really appreciate you even reading this very long post! Lol. I was not sure if it was even legible...lol...but it really did help yo type it all out! Anyway, thanks so much

Well, I’m so glad there is a place to go where I can read about others experiences with toxic and/ or narc family or friends. Thanks so much for having this! For so long I felt so alone with the whole thing! I guess it might help if I finally share my experience with my mom at this point...Sorry in advance for this very lost post but it actually did help for me to type this all out!! Anyway, I’m not exactly sure how to define my mom. ...I’m not sure if she’s 100% narc or just completely unstable and toxic or maybe a little bit of it all. She does not have all the traits that I have found online...for example, she’s definitely not showy or critical however, for the traits that she does have she has them in great abundance!! The two narc traits that she exhibits in extreme doses are that she is unstable and completely unpredictable in the form of starting arguments ( with anybody) about almost anything at anytime AND never ever saying she’s sorry! I think in all my years on the planet she only said she was sorry to me twice. Once was when she admitted to me that she made mistakes as a mom ( which shocked the daylights out of me!) and the other time was when she started a fight with me because I was too nervous to meet with a friend I had been chatting with online...believe it or not she even picked a fight with me about something as trivial as that! But that was the extent of the apologies I’ve received from her in all my years BUT those were said to me in more recent times SO I actually thought there was hope that she was getting better! Or at least that was my hope until she recently proved otherwise...and in fact did to me one of the worst things anybody has ever done to me which still has me in a state of shock to this day in a lot of ways ( even though it’s about 7 months later) . Anyway, over a year ago my mom was diagnosed with very treatable early stage rectal cancer. At the time that she was diagnosed the lease in the apartment I was sharing with my xboyfriend ( who was at the time and still is just my friend) was ending. My xboyfriend and I shared the expenses with a temporary idea in mind to help each other out financially as we both were going through some financial woes but were both in the midst of getting on our feet. We were not happy with where we were living anyway so when my mom was diagnosed the idea came to mind that we could move in with her for a while and I could than drive her to all her Drs appts. and my xboyfriend and I could help her with any other chores she’d need assistance with. In exchange she would allow me and my xboyfriend to live there rent free in an effort to help us get our finances together. It all seemed good on paper BUT I was also quite a bit leery since I knew how she was and had had some very negative experiences with her starting fights with me and my xboyfriend and picking on him for no reason in the past and even going so far as to ruin vacations we were on and things like that...so I was extremely hesitant about the idea BUT my xboyfriend ( who obviously knows a bit of how she is already) convinced me that he believed she’d be on her best behavior this time since we were there to help her out. Of course we would get a good deal out of it to by living rent free but he still felt she would not start her usual fights considering the condition she was in ...so I went against my better judgement and did not resign my apartment lease and agreed to the deal of having me and my x move in to help my mom. Anyway, for the first 5 out of 8 months we were there it did seem pretty smooth. Of course I was busy driving her to her chemo and radiation appts and she would whine the entire time BUT otherwise, she was quite pleasant to me and my x. She has a big house so it was rather easy to keep some distance from her and have our own space. ..so it all seemed like smooth sailing in regards to us all getting along! However...she slowly started to feel better and with that I noticed some signs of her nasty side come out again. Her renewed interest in obsessively watching and listening to political news ( her absolutely over the top hobby and obsession since I was a kid !! ) started to resurface and her obnoxious need to talk about her political views to everyone in earshot without a care for what they believed started up again too!! My xboyfriend has very different views than she does and she is well aware of that. He of course kept his views to himself but that did not stop her from continuing to talk about her views with him or myself without the slightest provocation from us...usually in the form of jokes but also to spew her beliefs. Anyway, me and my x did our best to ignore it all and even though her ugly side was showing up again she seemed to continue to have times that she’d express deep appreciation for what me and my x were doing for her. She said she did not believe she’d get through her cancer treatment without us. So it still seemed to be a better experience with her than I ever had until April 8th. That was the day that it all changed! A few days prior to that me and my x noticed her ugly side surfacing a bit more than usual so he and I went out of our way to be attentive to her by cleaning more and cutting the grass more but nothing seemed to stop her need to cause strife and friction that day! While I was in another room working my xboyfriend was having a cigarette in the back porch where my mom once again started discussing her favorite political stuff. At that point my xboyfriend had been biting his tongue for so long that he finally expressed his opposing thoughts a bit on the topic. My mom did not like this and she quickly escalated things into a disagreement between the two of them. Anyway, my x tried to smooth things over but at this point she was sulking...something she loves to do when things don’t go her way! When I was made aware of what was going on I tried to smooth things over as well BUT I could tell that my mom was completely in her full ugly mode ..she made it very clear to me that she wanted my X out of her house due to the fact that he did not agree with her politically! At this point it was the beginning of the pandemic lockdown and I was in utter shock that anybody...especially my own mom could be so callous and evil as to throw someone who helped her out to the streets during a pandemic no less over something as ridiculously trivial as not agreeing with her viewpoint......so I then told her that I also did not agree with her political views ( I said that as a test to see what she would do to me) and it was then that she told me to leave too! I finally let her have it...I cursed her out and called her every name I could think of!!! My x defended me and started yelling at my mom too...it got really bad!!! Me and my x stormed out and I told her to never ever contact me again...something I have done many times in the past but felt really dead serious this time! She promised she would not! Anyway, thankfully me and my xboyfriend had enough money to move into a hotel. Despite my telling my mom to never contact me again she started blowing up my phone within 15 minutes of us leaving. I did not pick up the phone so she just left messages upon messages saying that I could come back but not my x...which continued to infuriate me! However, the next day she relented and left messages saying that we were both welcomed back and she’d like us to sit down and talk it out. ..but at that point I was mentally worn out by her and could not understand what there was to discuss!!! She had a breakdown because we did not agree with her politically and this was so horrendous to her that she felt the need to kick me ( her own daughter) and my xboyfriend out on the streets during the pandemic because of it...despite all we did for her!!! What is there possibly to discuss? And if we did move back in exactly how long would it be before she did something like this ( or maybe something even worse) again? To this day I’m still shocked that anybody can do such an awful thing to anybody...let alone their own kid and the kids friend! Anyway, she’s been trying to contact me ever since but I have not heard one apology from her!! The closest she got was when she asked if we can both make peace with each other. She had asked this right before she was going in for surgery ( that my sister helped her with) . I did respond to that message with a small sentence of “ good luck”. In response she got really nasty with me and accused me of being cold and uncaring for not saying more to her due to the fact that she was going into surgery!! She than said I was just as uncaring and angry as my xboyfriend is...so the email was about her attacking me and myb x again... So here is a woman that kicks her daughter and friend to the streets during a pandemic because we don’t think just like her...and I’m uncaring!!! LOL!!! At this point I did not respond further to her and I have put all her messages into my spam folder for now. I don’t even read them anymore because they cause me too much upset!!! I’ve decided that I will seek professional help about all of this and maybe get some professional direction on how I should handle things with my mom going forward...perhaps even going in the no contact direction if that turns out to be best. . And as a side note to all of this insanity...my sister told me that my mom told her that despite her trying to desperately contact me since that time she’s not sure she could ever forgive me for not being there for her during surgery!! LMAO!! She told my sister that she was really only kicking my xboyfriend out and not me and she thinks it was wrong of me to not go back and help her at that point!!! So in other words she expected me to leave my x by himself in the streets during a pandemic and come back and play nurse to her despite everything she did!! And I can’t even believe that I’m even typing something so insane and disgusting now! But at the same time she also had my sister relay messages to me and my x about how she missed us so much! And If all of this is not the definition of an insane person I’m not sure what is!! Anyway, I know this was very long but I thought it might help to discuss this situation with people that may understand and maybe offer insight??? In any event it did help to communicate all of this with anybody!! As it stands it’s been over 7 months that this all happened and me and my x found a nice apartment and we are getting our lives together for the most part. In fact, in a lot of ways our lives started really going great! But at the same time I’m still in a state of shock and appalled that anybody can treat their own daughter ( and friend) this way after all we were doing for her! Aside from when I wished her luck I have not communicated with her at all since that time and I really don’t miss her at all either...in fact I feel quite relieved to be away from all the negative tension she always creates! She has no idea of my new address and I want it to stay that way! She’s already started badgering my sister for my address but I made my sister promise not to divulge it to her. Anyway, don’t get me wrong...she has not always been totally awful to me...in fact, on the surface it may even appear that she’s good to me. She can be very sweet and soft spoken and almost too kind at times. She’s also given me cars, computers, taken me on trips, given me money but the good times are tainted with not knowing when she’ll change her mood and pick a fight for any reason..politics is her favorite topic to pick a fight about but she’ll gladly find anything else if that one does not work. ..and I think in the end she has done all these nice things for me with the condition that she can get away with mistreating me and despite my past attempts at distancing myself from her she always manages to find a way to weasel her way back into my life without ever having said she was sorry!! This time I want it to be different though! I just can’t allow her to get away with doing this horrible thing this time. I look forward to getting professional help on the matter but I’m curious how others on here view this? What would you do if you were me? Also...does she sound like a narcissist to you? Or perhaps bipolar? Or unstable? Maybe a bit of them all? Or is it possibly me that’s wrong? Did I overreact in your opinion? I’m very open to hearing any sides on this...even if I’m wrong in some way? Maybe there’s something I’m not seeing or overreacting to? I tried to keep this post as factual as possible even though I could not resist expressing some thoughts on her along the way. Thanks so much for listening...it means so much!!!

I am so sorry for what you are going through Nightjar and I think you are so right! It seems like walking away is possibly the best way to deal with a narc. From what I understand, narcs crave any kind of attention...even if it is negative attention. However, the silence is the most unbearable to them. Also, it might be best for yourself to concentrate on just you and by walking away you are doing that in a sense. Anyway, you seem to have a good handle on all of this ...good for you and sorry again! Virtual hugs to you!!

Really sorry about the whole situation

Gosh..yes, that last statement is so true! Wow! So sorry to hear about your brothers antics! That sounds awful! By the way, do your parents acknowledge that he is a narc too? Just wondering how they deal with the whole thing? Anyway, thanks for relating?

This will probably sound like a stupid question but has anybody ever had a toxic parent (or relative) do something so bad that you almost could not even wrap your head around it? Even perhaps left you in a state of shock in a sense? Maybe you were even too embarrassed to discuss it with anybody because it was so bad? Can anybody relate? Thanks

Well, you would probably make a great therapist in that case.:)