chaku,
I'm glad that you read the traps. While not all of us fall into everyone of them, they are important. The importance of the traps is to realize that they are all negative thinking patterns. From your thread, You do see only one side of the question and not the other. "Grey" thinking is where we all should be; however, we are all different and hold only one answer.

You basically have agreed to the other traps. Can you see where you fall into them? Maybe not ALL the time but you will at one time or another. Your response to the "should" trap, you stated the probable positive usage. The shoulda, coulda, woulda words are normally used in a negative context.

The idea of the traps is for a person to see how the trap applies to them. The concept is to turn the negative into a positive. Cognition drives our behavior. The more positive we become in our thinking, the happier we become.
Sheepwoman

So you are saying that these only apply when used negatively? That would probably change my opinion on all of them.  :biglaugh: As long as they are not always seen as negative viewpoints then I agree with them all.

chaku,
The traps are just traps that makes our cognitive thinking to only seeing the bad or negative. The object in recognizing these negative traps within YOURSELF is to respond with an alternate POSITIVE way to change yourself- cognitive thought processes and the behavior associated with them. So, in answer to your response, yes these traps are all negative concepts. If you disagree, then you see the positive view. So, now, which ones do you see in yourself and how will you change the negative thinking that is causing you to be depressed? None of us are perfect, including you, and we cannot say that none of these traps refer to ourself. I tried to delude myself that I didn't fall into the traps, but on further reflection, I did.
Sheepwoman

You want me to repent for my sins huh?  :;): Just kidding Sheepwoman.

1: All or nothing= I made a comment here about believing all people that are my opposite to be unnattractive, when my intent was actually to say my moral opposite.

2: Overgeneralization= The first applies here as well.

3: Mental Filter= I still am not sure about this one, as this depends on how important this single detail was? If something horrible happens, sometimes it is best to focus moreso on these details. My father threatened to kill my family with a shotgun, and regardless of whether or not he said "I love you" this detail takes priority for me.

4: Discounting Positives= I can't come up with anything here, at least recently enough to jog my memory.

5: Jumping to Conclusions= As I already admitted, I am guilty of this here. After reading some statements saying that depressed or self-destructive people should "wait" until they change before having relationships, I made accusations of prejudice before questioning why they held such beliefs. I still disagree, but probably stepped a little out of line.

6: Magnification=  I do not think that I am guilty here as far as I can remember, I am sure others disagree, but I do my best to look at myself as a whole. Sure somethings are more important than others, but that is the way I believe it should be. (Well placed should statement :) )

7: Emotional Reasoning= I already form my logic from analytical thought and my best intentions. I try to seperate how I "feel" about the facts as much as possible from whether or not they are facts.

8: Should Statements= I disagree with this one moreso than any other as being universally bad judgement. I motivate myself by shoulds and should nots daily, and will not change this. I should not kill someone else, I should not rob someone else, I should not harm anyone else intentionally. I should try to be a good person, I should try and help others as best as I can. These are good things to me. Also, I do have ideals, if reality is too far outside of these things I will change my behavior accordingly. I agree that believing things outside of yourself should be a certain way can be bad, but it depends on how you deal with it.

9: Labeling= Yeah, like everyone else I have screwed up here. As I mentioned above, I said that my opposites are unnattractive people. I mislabeled them.

10: Personalization and Blame= I do hold myself accountable for my past. It is now entirely out of my control, but I accept responsibility. I also hold myself accountable for my emotions, thoughts, and behaviors, which to a certain extent can simply run their course outside of my control. I take the blame there. That does not mean that I am perfect, or do not forgive my own mistakes, but I am not outside responsibility for myself. I do not take the blame for other peoples actions, or how the world is.

My confessions, Sheepwoman. You Happy now?  :laugh:

chaku,
I did not mean you had to "confess your sins" to me. The cognitive traps are food for thought and for you to see which one or all of them you fall into. The object is how to change the negative thinking of each trap to a positive, workable solution for yourself. The traps initiate change in your thoughts and behavior. That is all. Thank you for sharing your views on each trap. Just for your own edification, your responses are how you think/perceive  yourself in relation to the outside world and how you cope.

I am not a professional; however, I have had CBT and found it an excellent and healing aspect of my life.
Sheepwoman

Sheepwoman,

Thanks. I find this to be very interesting. I translated them and printed them out.
Especially 4,5,8 & 10 apply on me. I'll be working on them

Autumn

Autumn,
So you won't be overwhelmed, take one trap at a time to work out for yourself.
Sheepwoman

Interesting...I've been catching myself in a lot of negative thinking...I think the easiest one for me to catch is the shoulds. I tend to do that a lot...but the big one for me is jumping to conclusions...I do it with everything.

I fall into all of them at one time or another. Sometimes through reasoning I've been able to dig myself out but most of the time I've just laid there in futility.

I'd try a good book instead. I can't understand how these people justify charging so much!

Wow! I am ashamed to tell how many of those I related to. How does an unmotivated depressee take charge and change so many things about themselves?

Lots of practice! Lots of patience with yourself. It ain't easy!

I should myself from sunrise to sunset and feel guilty if I don't get all the things done that I told myself I 'should have' done. No wonder I make myself a nervous wreck!

Jackie, I relate to that. I always see the things I 'should've done' instead of the things I did do. Sometimes making a list, of the things I did / that were positive during the day, helps me get a little perspective.
But well, like you said... lots of practice & patience!

Autumn

Wow, all 10 apply to me, big time! Everyday.

Okay what i see in most replies is taking one thing at a time.

A constant issue with me is, I have this idea that I can't work on my problems and live a normal life at the same time.

For example; I have a sleep problem, I cant go to work/school, or do anything I should untill that is fixed.

or

I dont want to do anything at all before I dealt with all my issues with people.

I cant think of a way to work on problems and at the same time continueing life as usual.

So if all 10 apply to you, which one do you start with? Im sure some of these go hand in hand.

Ugh, more negative thinking

FallingSun,
If you have a sleep problem, get that fixed first so you can focus a bit better. As far as the traps are concerned and where to start, just pick one and work on it until you are comfortable and can use the positive response to the issue. If you aren't in therapy at the moment, see if you can find a therapist who does CBT. You can work through each issue and learn many other skills to help you with daily life. This is the most effective therapy I have ever had and the affirmations have become a mantra for me when I start backsliding. Keep posting and we will give you support with your issues; however, getting professional help is always the best step on the road to healing.
Sheepwoman

Yeah, I agree. As soon as I get that fixed I'll have more energy and can focus better. (here comes the negative thinking) BUT at this point in my life, its critical that i pick up a good school again, or get a job, so i cant spend 5 months on fixing my sleep problem, which i feel I really need.

About the professional help; Im seeing a social worker ( i think thats what its called) and we mostly just talk about the past week and I get some useful info at times but as soon as I get back home that feeling of hope is gone again.

Just started with the actual psychiatrist, but still waiting for that test, which will probably just reveal I'm shy. So that wont do any good.

I asked for help, but I dont have a concrete help question, which is a big problem. I'm not sure what to expect from these professionals, which makes the whole process slow.

I have found some things here that apply to me, also avoiding social responsibility seems to play a big part.

You mentioned CBT. I dont know what that means sorry (I'm actually not English, but if you can give me the meaning of the 3 letters I'm sure I can figure out what it means.

Ugh, everything is just so slow and time is running out...I feel so rushed, yet I think I need to take time for recovery...unfortunatly we don't live in a world like that.

Thanks btw :hug:

FalingSun, CBT is Cognitive-Behavioral Therapy and it is very effective.

The test(s) the psychiatrist gives you will reveal more than just shyness in your personality. Testing is a good way for both of you to find your weak areas and to allow the pdoc diagnose you and prescribe the appropriate medication if needed. Most, but not all, mental illnesses can be treated with meds alone, therapy alone or a combination.

You have to realize that things do not happen overnight. Therapy takes time and you have to give it just that-time. You cannot change yourself overnight. It can take many months or years to constitute enough changes to make you feel whole again.
Sheepwoman

Okay Ill write that down and forward it to the shrink. Thanks very much again. I just want this all to finally eb over, it doenst matter if it takes long as long as I know whats wrong and if it can be cured.

FallingSun,

I also highly recommend CBT. I've had probably more than 20 years of off-and-on analysis-type talk therapy, with many different counselors. That can be good in its own way, especially if you have issues from your past that need to be dug out and dealt with.

But CBT is very forward-focused, and often tends to be more short-term rather than talk therapy that can go on for years. My current CBT psychologist helps me to set goals for where I'd like to be in 6 months, and then we meet to review how I am doing and where I might need help to stay on track to meet my goals.

I agree so much with Sheepwoman about medication. I'm really not trying to push meds, but I've found that (maybe especially in the area of sleep) a small amount of an anti-anxiety med helps me fall asleep so much better. And for those nights when I still can't sleep, an occasional sleep aid (lunesta seems to work better for me than ambien did; there are other options, too) helps me to get a very sound sleep. It is so important to establish a good sleep schedule. I know that when I allow myself to become too stressed, it messes up my sleep and that only increases the stress.

Try not to become discouraged. Even though your long-term healing may take some time, you have started seeking some immediate help. Hopefully the psychiatrist will be a good support and help you to begin to feel better, so you can function in your daily life while you are doing this healing.

Karen

That sounds good.

My sleep problem, my rhytm is way off and its so hard to get back at it...especially if it really doesn't matter since I'm just home wasting my time.

I will suggest this to the psychiatrist then, I often thought sheer willpower would get me far too, but lately that's failing too.

This anxiety seems familliar then, I'll do some more research on that as from what i've read, its mostly about panic attacks and such? Is that correct? Cause I don't really have panic attacks. But the past days, thinking about not having the life I want, gives me difficulties breathing and I sort of want to cry and just....give up.

I'm worried that I take everything I read the wrong way, and I just adapt my mind, thinking all these things apply to me, which is why it's so difficult to make a concrete help question.

There are things from the past yes, that may need solving, but its mostly the future I'm worried about.

Would I need a prescription for these meds that help me sleep or could I just get them?

Thanks for your reply. I really hope I can get help soon...

There are degrees of anxiety; panic attacks are pretty extreme, but yes, many folks have what is called Generalized Anxiety Disorder (GAD) and are just anxious in general but don't have specific panic attacks.

Meds: before I was diagnosed and prescribed the meds I mentioned above, I tried over the counter things like Nyquil, benedryl, etc - things that make you sleepy. I also sometimes took some Tylenol 3 (which was a prescription for something else, but made me sleepy) -- basically, all of these things were my attempts to self-medicate. Actually, some of those things should not even be taken when you are on an antidepressant, which I was.

There are other things you could try such as sleepy-time tea or chamomile tea, warm milk, etc. Relaxing tapes, etc. But the specific anti-anxiety meds and sleep aid pills that I was referring to earlier are prescription meds.

I took an assertiveness workshop recently. Here is some part of what we were told.


Additional types of assertion

1. Escalating assertion: begins with a basic, assertive response. When the other person fails to respond and continues to violate your rights, the assertor gradually escalates the assertion, becoming increasingly firm (but not aggressive).
2. Fogging: Acknowledging minimally the person’s argument or message but keep to your own position or agenda. E.g., “That may be a good suggestion. However, I’ve decided what I’m going to do.”
3. Clarification: Asking for additional information, checking out perceptions. E.g., Response to “You’re aggressive” would be “What is it about me that you feel is aggressive?”
4. Confrontive Assertion: When the other person’s words contradict their actions. This involves objectively describing what the other person said would be done and what they actually did.

[Note: Aggressive confrontation involves judging other people rather than describing their behaviour]

econ,
Your additions to the traps is well-put. Have you read the Assertiveness Training or Anger Management topics in here? They could also give you additional insight on personality types. I find many people are judgemental when they meet or work with someone. We are not judgemental here because we are all suffering from mental illnesses and we're here to help each other.
Sheepwoman

How can we solve these issues though? Reading through the list, I fall into lots of these "traps" but I am not sure how to reverse my thinking pattern to get out, or avoid all togther, these traps.

Citystars,
If you recognize that you fall into many of the traps, take one at a time and reverse however you are thinking into a more positive manner. If you are currently in therapy, print out the traps and take to your therapist. I am sure he/she will help you get through the traps until you can feel more comfortable by changing your thought patterns, behavior and perceptions. Another good tool to look at in here is the Assertivenes training. Both of these topics are for you to help yourself in making lifelong changes to help you out of depression. You will have to do the work involved to make your life better by changing you.
Sheepwoman

I am new to this forum and have posted in some other areas but I came here to try to learn more about what it is from which my wife is suffering and has been for some time now.

The list of cognitive traps is excellent, but can I offer that one doesn't necessarily need to be coping with depression to fall into any one of those traps at any given time? I ask as one who isn't suffering from depression (unless I am in just major, major denial) but can identify with a number of those traps and have caught myself in some of them at one time or other.

One that I have been able to overcome more than any of the others more often than not is the "should" thinking. My conditioning since young adulthood has been to completely disregard the opinions of others save for a few whose perspective, judgement and comportment I value--admittedly, it is taking the view that "since I can't please everyone, I can really only please myself" to an extreme (which sometimes has been to my detriment, but not often enough to recall). This attitude is rooted in the fact that I have my life to live and no one can live it for me; therefore, no one else has any right to offer any unsolicited criticism, help, guidance as to how I should live, love, think and be. Similarly, I have no right to do likewise toward anyone else--except if I've been asked to give my opinion and if I've asked for that type of input/feedback from someone else.

So now my question is, how do I really be a help to my spouse if I see her falling into any of those traps without being my usual insensitive, invalidating self? (Sorry for the quanum leap, there).

It's true that you do not have to be depressed to fall into any of the cognitive traps. It is all a matter of how you think or perceive things. The traps are to let you see where any negative thinking occurs and to help you turn it around. As far as helping your spouse, you may want to print out the traps and let her read them. She may be able to see some of them in herself. If so, maybe the two of you can work on them in a positive, give and take manner. If she is currently in therapy, let her take the list to her next appointment and discuss it with her therapist. I hope this works well for the two of you.
Sheepwoman

Hi,


I see myself in many of these traps. It seems imposible to have positive thinking when i'm deepressed. I don't even want to print these mind sets out because it makes me feel guilty. Recently, my councelor and my friends are encouraging me to belive that i will have more well days. I have noticed that i excpect to be sick and am suprised when i'm well. I am trying to do the opposite: excpect to be well and be suprised when i'm sick. I don't know if that is such a great thing. This week so far i have had two good days and expected the next one to be well also. When it was not it made me very sad and dissapointed. And i wonder even if it is my fault that i didn't believe enough that it would be good and therefore it was my fault that it was bad: rapid cycling both hypo-mania in the morning and then depression in the afternoon. When i talked to my freind, she said to go for three days of well days the next time. Is this way of thinking good or bad. It doesn't feel very good so far.


amberrose

Amberose,
I agree that it's hard to think differently when we are depressed. Even I have this problem as I rapid cycle also. Are you on medication? If so, is it helping at all?

Will your therapist work with you on any of the traps? What they are intended for is for you to see which ones you can identify in yourself. The next goal is to take them one at a time and change that way of thinking into a more positive one. Once you begin to master each one, your self-esteem will improve (feelings of guilt are low self-esteem) and you will begin to have more good days. When you feel good about yourself, the down days will become fewer.

The whole design of CBT is to change how you think which will then change your behavior patters. It is all a positive change in thought.

Keep working on those good days.
Sheepwoman

Hi Sheepwoman,

Thanks so much for your reply!
Yes, i am on medication--have been for almost 20 years. I have always been rapid cycling BP; but most recently it has gone from months of depression with a short time of mania, to very rapid cycling-- 2 and 3 dramatic mood changes a day. The medication is doing some good as i see it, because the times of depression are much shorter and i have had some stable days in between the hypo-mania and depression where i actually enjoy life. However, my psychiatrist has never been able to stablize me for longer than about 30 days(which so far has been a once in a lifetime relief from BP). Therefore, my pdoc is working with me consistently to find better combinations and dosages of meds.
Although i've been diagnosed and on meds for so long, cognative therapy is new to me. I never had the means to be able to afford it until a few months ago.
The traps that i fall into are part "B" of #5-predicting that things will turn out badly. Also #6--binocular trick, and #1. All or Nothing Thinking. ( This is how i saw myself the day i read these traps; i felt like all applied to me, when now i can see that only these 3 are what i need to work on).
I did talk to my therapist about my feelings of guilt and she helped me out on that one. The self-confidence and self-esteem are a work in progress.
I also talked to my pdoc, and he increased my Wellbutrine (an antidepressant) by a small amount. And today i am having a very good day. Hoping it will last a while.

Thank you for this list you posted. It shows me a bit of what i need to work on.

I hope you are doing well,
amberrose






This post has been edited by amberrose: Aug 26 2006, 08:04 PM

This is my personal list. It's at the heart of what I'm struggling with at the moment. I hope with some medication and therapy I can turn around my view of my current and potential problems.

wow

I really didn't know that other people did all that stuff too - sorry I must sound sooo daft!

Does anybody have any tips on how to approach changing these things? Is the best way to focus on one at a time, do I need to concentrate on one thing & try to recognise when I'm doing it & then rationalise it away? Or are there other methods of trying to get out of these negative circles?

Thank u

justsumgai, work on your list one at a time. Don't overwhelm yourself
Sheepwoman

to DF, Spacefrog,
The best way to approach any topic in the list is to approach them one at a time. You do not necessarily rationallize them away. What you need to do is change each topic to a more positive version. For example: if you see things as black and white, the objective is to see them as a grey outlook. I can't give you the answers to each topic you think you fall into. That is something you need to work out yourself. If you are currently in therapy, see if he/she can help you with the traps. It's really good to get that professional feedback. These are also good for building self-esteem. You will definitely feel better as you change your outlook to a more positive one.
Sheepwoman

Wow, I pretty much do every thing on that entire list. Especially with the magnification, while I magnify my own faults, I also shrink everyone elses. Everybody else is perfect, I'm horrible... :wink:

pandora, don't think you are horrible. If you see yourself falling into these traps, just take one at a time, turn them into something positive and work them into your everyday life.
Sheepwoman

Gee, SW, darn, I have all almost 10 of them and I don't know where to start! But mostly blaming myself and got into a trap of 'what if's, dealing with my divorce. I should print this out and give it to my shrink and tick which one that I have. Great thread!

DeepDiver

DD, Print out a copy of the traps for yourself, too. Put it up somewhere visible in your house. The best way to start is just pick one that you always fall into. Work on that one until you feel comfortable with the change before moving to the next. Showing the list to your pdoc is a great isea. And if you are in therapy, show it to your tdoc as well. I am sure that you will get some good feedback.
Sheepwoman

Sheepwoman:

Just read this thread. Your list is quite interesting and quite true. I also agree with one poster who noted that many a non-depressed person could easily fall into any of these traps -- some as an excuse for inaction and some subconsiously, but to the same effect.

I am sure that I have fallen into a number of them over time and even may be in the deepest pit of one right now, so far down I can't see the way out and therefor unaware I am in it at all.

However, I think you could legitimately increase the size of the list (although nothing is quite so communicative and tidy as a "Top Ten"**). The reason I say this is that the trap in which I reside is quite tangible, but not really defined by any single member of your list. As I write this, I also think it is possible my trap may not belong on your list in that yours are each in their own way proactive. They all seem to share the attribute of being ways in which we convince ourselves that we do not actually control our situtations and destinies. My personal trap is the antithesis of these-- and maybe worse -- because it is a trap that ends in pure, unadulterated inaction.

My personal trap might be labled "I am lost; I don't know what to do or where to go." The mode of thinking and physical sensations, at least in myself, are something like this (very oversimplified): I know I am depressed. I have the physical sensation of a head filled with mud. My mind's eye sees only darkness or murky, indistinquishable ideas. My creativity is completely out of reach. I JUST DON'T KNOW WHAT TO DO!

Aside from this sounding like a passage from Vonnegut's "Cat's Cradle", this is a good description of what I have lived with when in my darkest, deepest hours, days and weeks. I don't sit there and blame others or find excuses for my own behavior; I simply do nothing. Because my mind is so muddy I can't even see the starting point from which action can begin. And you should see it when I am trying to sleep. The darkness is filled with random firings of thoughts, ideas, images, numbers and symbols (yes, numbers and symbols!!!), none of which I can form into a reasonable idea. Maybe it's my brain just clearing the pipes. Who knows?

The reason I think that, for me at least, my personal trap is worse is because I find it so hard to define, to dissect into it's components so that I can address them. It's like the difference between apple pie and apple butter. I can dissect a pie and separate it's ingredients, describe them and even reassemble the pie. Apple butter is just a pile of brown glop. I can describe an apple pie to someone from another planet by illuminating the shapes, textures and maybe even the taste. Apple butter? How do you say "goo" on Alpha Centauri ? (Of course, this assumes one fact long known to the denizens of Star Trek, Stargate, Starman and Charley the Starkist Tuna -- EVERYBODY IN THE UNIVERSE SPEAKS ENGLISH!!!)

I am not trying to diminish the value of your list, Sheepwoman. Every single one of your items is a pure fact of depressed life. And that you defined and described each so well is absolutely enlightened. But when reading it and realizing they don't really nail me down, it made me see more clearly the walls of the box I am in.

So does this mean starting a different list? One called "Things that make you go... do nothing"? I don't know. I'd like any thoughts you may have on this.

Because, frankly, I don't have a clue what to do about it.

**Yes, I am a Letterman... man. A Lettermanman. Lettermaniac? Lettermad? Something like that.

Oh, one more, very important thought.

Mmmmmm. Apple pie.


DD

This post has been edited by DuckDodger: Oct 20 2006, 02:33 PM

DD,
This only one component of CBT that I received while hospitalized. It is not a ist that I personally created. From what you say, I also agree that there are more issues that could be related to the list of traps we fall into; however, this a list of the majority of traps. I am guessing also from your post that you fall into the Black/White thought pattern which will cause a muddy feeling or you may be in the "shoulda, woulda, coulda" topic. The object here is to select a trap that you fallen into constantly and work on yourself to change it to a positive statement. Once you have the positive statement infuse it into your thinking and that will also change the behavior associated with the negative way you think or act. This is a very forceful and useful tool for self-change.
Sheepwoman