Hi everyone,
I've been fighting depression for the last 6 months and found this forum - now I personally am doing much better. Many people here seem very informed about mental illness. My mother doesn't think she has a problem and I doubt she will ever see a counselor but I've researched quite a bit and have never put a finger on if my mother is a blend of mental illnesses or just her own brand of quirkiness and wanted some opinions. I'm hoping somone here can point me in the right direction. I want to help my mom!

Here are the characteristics that seem to cause problems and alienate family members and others:
1- A view of needing everyone to be alike - this one is hard to explain - but she has a hard time understanding or even liking people who are not motivated by what she is motivated by and/or cares what she cares about; for example she harps on my poor sister in law about getting a nicer bigger house; or, she will harp on a Republican she knows (she is a Democrat) about how ridiculous Republicans are an so on and so forth
2- Talking about the same 3 topics over and over and not listening to other people's topics and/or changing the subject to topics she cares about
3 - Self-centeredness - She will suggest that you drive 3 hours out of your way even if she is only driving 5 minutes and work on convincing you it is fair because of some outlandish reason; if she wants people to come see a new thing she has added to her house, even if it was difficult for that person she would find a way for them to get there because of being so focused on wanting people to see her new thing
4- Manipulation - For example, If you can't meet her at 5 - she'll ask your entire schedule and say things like "oh well you can cancel that thing at 4 - you could do that tomorrow couldn't you?"
Another example "I can't be on time because I promised your kids that we would make cookies"
5- Controlling - when my dad wanted to join a church group - because she didn't want to go but didn't want to be left alone she cried and threw a fit and called everyone she knew and embarrased him into not doing it
She told my brother that his niece and nephew - my children - had BEGGED to meet him for lunch (which wasn't true) when he said it really was a busy day for him and he didn't have time
6- Overly attached to possessions - she cannot throw anything she owns - she is DROWNING in junk and has an emotional attachment to everything she owns
7-Can't be alone to an extreme extent - has a hard time driving even 20 minutes without someone riding with her, she stays overnight with friends (she is 56) if her husband is gone

I know most people on the forums don't like diagnosing - I just want someone's insight. I would love to help her before she scares absolutely everyone away. Is this OCD, Asbergers? I know I may be straying a bit here - but I'm not sure who to ask and I'm running out of ideas. HELP!!!!!

Hi NickyLynn,
We meet again.
I can see your concern over your mother, and guess what? I have NO CLUE! At first I was thinking that maybe this was symptomatic of dementia. But then when I saw her age, that went down the tubes. It is very common for folks to have more than one mental disorder, to answer your 1st question. I was then going to suggest that you peruse this site, and you have already done that. I'm running out of thoughts.
The only other suggestion I have is that if you can see your own doc to talk about her specifically, maybe he can put his finger on it. And also give you some suggestions as to how to get her in to be seen. I would start with a psychiatrist first, but that is just my opinion. It is very hard to suggest to someone that there may be a problem going on when they don't see it. And if you gave her the examples you gave here, most likely she will get defensive and be able to justify each one. Not to mention being unhappy with you.

Another thing you might want to consider, maybe....
At the times when you see her speaking inappropriately to someone, after she is gone, ask them if they would mind talking to you for a moment about your mother. Just tell them you have some concerns about her but aren't really able to verbalize your specific concerns. Maybe they would be willing to tell you not only what they thought about what your mother said, but also maybe what they see as being wrong. You never know what you'll hear. But I suspect that whoever you talk to will be relieved to be able to express their feelings to her words. If they feel that they aren't the only one that was bothered, then they won't walk away hating her or judging her so much. This could be a win/win for both of you. But be your most tactful self, which I know for a fact that you can do.

This is all I've got! Sorry I can't identify specifically what it is. Best of luck to you!
AT
PS: I don't think she is in the Aspergers dept at all. But that is just me!

Hi NickyLynn.

Have you checked out the information about codependency? The reason I ask is because my mom is definitely codependent, and our moms sound a lot alike! I agree with AT, I don't think it sounds like Asperger's Syndrome.

Take care!

Yeah I didn't really think Aspergers either, but I went down that road because I wondered if it was a "systematizing" of the world like autism spectrum people do. But you're right, it doesn't fit. I looked up codependency - and the neediness fits but really nothing else. For example -
1- My mom would not be one to worry for example about feeding me, but she might come to my house and not have a problem eating what we had planned for supper or a hidden stash of cookies.
2- If we went out together for a meal, she might jump at the chance to have me pay for her meal, but she wouldn't be quick to pay for mine
3- She is codependent in that she relies on my children for her happiness. She does absolutely anything they want and tries to make them happy. She talks about them the way most people might discuss their children, not their grandchildren.
4-This description fits too - angry, victimized, unappreciated, and used - she constantly thinks everyone is out to get her almost to bizarre levels - her dislike for her boss, who is not perfect, but basically a decent guy is out of proportion

She has an extremely unhealthy pattern of behaviors and she has alienated her mother and her sisters and doesn't seem to care, but clings to her grandchildren like they are a life raft. With age - she is 56 - the destructive behaviors seem to get worse. And how do you help someone who already thinks her ungrateful daughter doesn't appreciate her?

Thanks for your input!
Nicky

Hi Always,
Let me tell you on a sidenote - I'm still doing good!!!! You don't get to tell me I told you so! :) I hope this continues. I have no idea what is fixing me, but I think I am out of the darkness at least for the time being. Again, I credit you!

OK - my mom. Here's the most odd part - despite the horrific description I've given of her, if you met her, you probably would mostly like her. However, everyone who is close to her - her 2 children, her mother, her daughter-in-law, her best friend, her 4 sisters - have about had it with her. It's the using of kindness to manipulate - the constant use of guilt to control loved ones that makes her family want to scream. And when people are frustrated, giggling like it's a game. Not that any of this matters - she would never ever ever think she had a problem - she doesn't accept that she is in the wrong EVER. If she apologizes - it is oddly somehow your fault like "If you had just told me you felt that way ahead of time, I'd have never done it".

I found a link for narcissistic personality disorder and I think I might have struck the jackpot there.
Signs and symptoms of narcissistic personality disorder may include:

Grandiose sense of one's own abilities or achievements
Fantasies about having exceptional power, attractiveness or success
Sense of belonging to an exclusive group of people who truly understand each other
Need for constant praise
Expectations of special treatment
Exploitation of other people
Lack of empathy for other people
Envy of other people or a belief that you are the subject of other people's envy
Haughty or arrogant behaviors

The only thing that doesn't match is the typical substance abuse that seems to frequently accompany it and there seems to be more malevolence in some of the descriptions than my mother seems to have.

I guess the next step is how do I help her - asking the doctor is a good idea - but I'm a pessimist - I'm not expecting much help there. My dad loves her, but has given up on helping her relate in a normal way to others. My aunt (her sister) thinks she needs to be hospitalized but I think that's extreme. I somehow doubt there's a cure, but wondered if there's enough information out there to teach me how to cope.
Thanks for the ideas, Always,
NickyLynn

NickyLynn,
I'm sure we were related in a previous life!

It's very interesting all you said. For most of what you have said about your mom, now and in the other post, in my mind I kept thinking that she is in the onset of Alzheimers, even despite her age. But then, the area of manipulation isn't something that any level of dementia could pull off. And why am I not surprised about your pessimism? (This is a private joke here!) As to hospitalizing her, this is not something you could make happen, so forget about that. I don't know how to help you with coping other than for you to know that this is how she is, don't put any stock into anything she says. When she blames you, blow it off, don't react at all in any way! Don't get sucked into her manipulation, even if there is a win in it for you in the end. This is a matter of self respect. Think about if you weren't living anywhere near her, you would have to find solutions to your issues without having to play into some deal where you get kicked in the face. So no matter what she comes up with, no thanks mom! As to guilt, no one can succumb to this unless they allow this. I know this is easier said than done. But really, in all of your minds you have to know that you are not guilty of whatever, and even if there may be a tiny bit of truth, SO WHAT? You owe her nothing when she is dishonest and deceiving to you. Her kindness to manipulate you, since you know this, the minute she starts acting kind don't get sucked into it! I have this analogy about people like her, (my father is this - but he was an alcoholic) are you familiar with the comic strip on Charlie Brown? Sure you are. There is a few strips on Charlie Brown with Lucy, and she is holding a football. She is telling Charlie Brown to trust her. She is very believable. "C'mon Charlie Brown, kick the ball, I PROMISE I won't pull the football away. You can trust me!" So Charlie gives in to her, even though he knows she has always lied about this, but in his heart he so wants to believe her. So off he goes, running like a banshee and sure enough, true to form, Lucy pulls the football away and he ends up hitting the ground flat on his back, with much pain and much humiliation. Sound famaliar to you? So you have to remind yourself, she hasn't ever been honest before, why would she be now? She is a master manipulator and the more successful she is at it, the more convinced she is that this is how to get her needs met. So, to shut me up, do your best best best to ignore her, walk away, shake your head, whatever.

But what really struck me the most, is this thought about the narcissistic disorder. I could talk to you all day about this. I have a bonafide genuine class A daugher that has this. It rips my heart out to a point that I can't even think about it/her.

She has exibited the symptoms since she was a very young child. When she was 5, a behavioral therapist evaluated her for me as I was so distressed by things she did. He clued me in right there in a very tactful way, without coming out and using that word, but that she is this way. I have tons of reseach on this. Every single symptom named no matter where I read it is her 100%. Her father, (whom I am divorced from) is exactly like her, only she is worse. All throughout her childhood, who she is created so many problems for me, it still makes me sick as to the amount of lying I did on her behalf, just so she could participate in something, even though every kid in her class was scared to death of her. She is a master at intimidation. It works like a charm on me.

The only differences I see between what I know and what you are saying is that this disorder doesn't just appear. It comes with the heartbeats. And I haven't seen much on any drug/alcohol abuse as being a factor. Yes in their younger years, but not when they start getting in to the adult years. The reason is, their ego is so high, they would never do anything that would bring harm to themselves as this would show them to be weak, less superior and would require them to have to lean on someone else for help. This simply would never happen. Every symptom you wrote above is true, but you have to know that it is to an extreme. NOBODY that has ever met my daughter wanted to be around her for more than 10 seconds. She has humiliated me to tears so many times that I am still embarrassed to run into people who were witnesses. Seriously, I could go on at great length of things from her entire life. She never had any friends and still doesn't. She will readily admit this but will also say that she doesn't care as everyone else is just a moron and she isn't going to waste her time on them. She is extremely intelligent, almost gifted in many ways. I always felt that she would have a tough time settling in to her niche, just because she has so many choices whereas most people are lucky if they have one or two. But the ego in these people will never allow them to show any weakness, never any dependency, and never ever a need to be nice to anyone for any reason at all. There is simply no one that is as good and as smart and as beautiful as she is, and so there is no point in her wasting her time. I have to tell you just one thing she did that still sets me back. This was just a couple years ago, she is 28 right now.
It was Mothers Day, a day that her norm is to never acknowledge. But this year, she got a dictionary, took off the cover of it, managed to put a cover on it that was solid white with no words or colors or anything on it. She titled it in her oh so perfect penmanship: "Laurie's Book of Accomplishments." Before you get to thinking that this is a nice thing, when you open it she has written, "For my mom, so she never forgets what she has given this world, ME!" Can you imagine? It gets better or worse rather. She has gone through this entire dictionary and for every single word that could be viewed as a compliment or anything good, she has whited out the real description and written in her name. She has also inserted a table of contents, that lists every word in alphabetical order that are used to describe her. "Glorious. Sacred. Queen, Profound, Perfect, Excellence. Sophisticated, Superior, Beautiful etc etc etc. You've got this by now.

When she was younger and I truly didn't understand her, I used to always justify her to others by saying either: I MUST'VE brought the wrong baby home from the hospital OR I must've overdosed her in the ego department! She is the true narcissist. TRUE! It is true that she would never say there was anything wrong with her, because there simply isn't. I can honestly say that I have never ever seen her show an ounce of kindness to anyone. She doesn't bother to manipulate. Her power of intimidation works just fine. Furthermore, who are you to not give her what she wants or agree with her? If you don't give her permission with bells of adornment she will just walk off and do it anyway. She doesn't get mad or upset, why should she? I'm a moron! She could care less what you think. She is going to get and have and do whatever she wants. The word apology doesn't exist in her world as she never has anything to apologtize for. No matter what it is that she did, it is always someone else's fault. ALWAYS. The End.

So now that I have put you to sleep with boredom, I apologize. Your writing triggered me and I never get an oppportunity to talk about her! (Real nice, huh?)

Anyway - I don't get a sense that this is your mother. I still fall back to you talking to a doc about her. If he can make you understand what is going on, then you are way ahead of her right there. And I also go back to your best effort to not suck into her stuff. And I know, easier said than done! I could send you my daughter to teach you how!

Good luck NickyLynn, and please don't forget about yourself in all of this. After all, who really IS the most important? YOU ARE!
And thanks for not hitting me for making your post mine.


AT

Hi - well done on your own health improvements! Sometimes it takes us a while to recognise that we really do feel a little better!

As for your mother: set in her ways ;-). Dad was like her and my mum is too ......... they want their opinions to be heard and no one elses'! She wasn't a teacher by any chance? ;-).

You won't be able to alter her, she is unlikely to recognise her 'faults', you either have to learn not to be drawn into the dynamics of her house or accept her atittudes. Hard on both counts, been there, still struggling .......... <rolls eyes>.

Some people get used to not being challenged about their attitudes etc.; so it becomes a really bad habit. Especially with the children, we like to get a sense of freedom from the family home but also feel that we would like to return occasionally ........ but attitude becomes difficult to deal with until it's easier to remain away.

Making sure that your immediate life runs smoothly must become paramount. If others are manipulated into visiting with her even if they don't want to, that's their problem. Don't let it become yours. Work out ways of avoiding being drawn into her dynamics. Visiting before she asks so that you are there for exactly how long you want to be there might be one way of keeping in contact but on your terms. I too get the 'you could do that another day' or 'you don't want to buy *that*' ........... yep Mum , actually I do want to buy it because it's something I would like to own. When I asked Mum many years ago whether she meant she didn't want me to have 'that' she told me she didn't really mind what I bought ....... but it is an immediate reaction, 'You don't want to live there/buy that/wear those shoes ....... ' <GGRR>

As for your mother's possessions, will it be left to you to clear out the house eventually? Possessions often make a person feel safe, they hold memories etc.; if it is her house accept. Her pig, her farm ;-)

LOL Always,
I am not mad at you. :)

My Mom is subtly different. She's a VERY sophisticated player at the game. My mom can suck you into believing that you really are a terrible person. It is these feelings of guilt, once you are away from her that make you want to scream. And the thing is SHE CAN BE DARN LIKABLE! And to THIS DAY, I sometimes wonder if this is a learned way of manipulating the world or if it is truly calculated and malevolent. And really doesn't everyone, no matter how screwed up, deserve to be loved?

She does have a level of empathy - but only if she sees you as a replica of herself. And everything in her life focuses on owing more possessions, talking about people who make more money (and her desire for my dad to make more money), the evils done to teachers, and the evil nature of Republicans. She has no happy, easy going hobbies. Everything is ANGRY or JEALOUS.

I see parts of her that I have learned and it terrifies me. I sometimes wonder - "Wat was my real motivation in complimenting that person?" "Did I do it just to get them on my side for some future thing?" I have a desire to be liked and respected and worry that I do the chess player moving that she does. Move knight to this position, queen to this position, etc. My brother and I discuss our fears of inconveniencing people in the way my mother does. My brother will apologize up and down and sideways to someone for any slight because he doesn't want to be my mother. My mom is the epitome of a contradiction in a human being - she will cry over shows where they build houses for disadvantaged people, but will be furious at my dad for being away from her when he spends time with habitat for humanity. Because he should be spending time with HER. Plus the constant comparison she has instilled in me. Am I better than this person? Am I worse? I want to just be me and not have such thoughts.

Yes the football analogy is apt. I think THIS time she has learned and she will be compassionate and think of others. I WANT a good relationship with my mother. She likes to regale me with tales of all her friends with perfect relationships with their daughters so I will gasp and sigh and say YES we should have that. Well you have to give to receive, as they say - and she's a lot better at receiving than giving. Should we ask now how much devoted daughter time she gives her mother? Let's just say not much, unless Grandma is willing to be a rapt listener. I could tell you a million things about my mother - every detail of her life - but she could not list the 3 people that I talk to the most in my workday. The only friend she could list is my friend Jane, because my mom has adopted her as her friend too, because she can rant politics to her, and Jane will politely listen.

However, if there are comparisons to be made, it sounds like my mother is coping relatively well. She does have a few friends - her closest friends become frustrated with her. The ones that remain have a shared belief/gripe with her stay the longest. My mom actually probably has more friends than I do - so I should give her that. And she is revered as an excellent teacher. Oddly enough as a teacher she is fantastic and I think REALLY cares about the kids. I'm not sure why in that one area she is so different? But with those kids she truly has absolute empathy, unlike her grandkids, whom she loves but are to a degree, lapdogs she can play with and entertain her. Ok - that's maybe too harsh, but there is perhaps a kernel of truth in that. She may talk all day on her cell phone and have my dad watch them. It's like they are sometimes simply there to entertain her or vicarious engines for her success if they perform well at sports, dance, etc. She shows a slight preference for my daughter who is more traditionally "successful" than my son - doing better at sports, socialization, dance etc. and tells everyone how she is just like her.

As far as your daughter -that makes me sad. It would be hard. YOu cannot control who your children turn out to be and the values that are more important than anything to you sometimes are lost. You can relate to me in some ways then with this. Those fleeting moments of connection are precious. I am so happy when I have a conversation with my mom where she really hears me. This is hard for her to do if I don't feel EXACTLY like her. For example, my brother and I have always liked fantasy like Star Wars. She sees that as "weird" and doesn't understand the illogical things we like. She accepts the parts of us that she likes, and not the whole of us. I think that is what has always hurt my brother so much. His interest in the military was viewed as abhorrent.

However, I was not clear in my post - that yes - my mom has mostly always been this way. The anger and hostility aspect is new, which appeared after she went to school and got her master's degree and became a teacher. It was made worse by a serious health issue she had about 5 years back which involved debilitating pain - called RSD then, but I believe it has a different name now.

Anyway, because of the nature of my mom's specific problem - I doubt there will ever be help for her, which is a shame. I guess everyone has their cross to bear and I should be glad that in a true sense, it may be out of whack, but she does love me and means well, she just has a difficult time showing it. She has never abused me or been cruel to me truly and means well. That's what makes it all the more confusing.
Nicky

LOL - my mom IS a teacher. Maybe that screws you up somehow??? No, but my mom has always been the way she is. My brother discussed not so long ago, that for example as children, she didn't truly play with us, as much as she brought us along to things SHE liked doing. We were there and she was always on the phone with someone else, seeking validation. She never treated us badly as much as we were just along for the ride. I don't have a tale of woe with my mom drinking in the bedroom and crying or anything - she just was a bit disconnected. The only time she was REALLY engaged is when we could offer some vicarious success - for example, when she coached my basketball team. She would go on and on about how good I was as a basketball player - which sounds good - but really it wasn't healthy. She wanted me to be good at things, so she could enjoy my succeses - which doesn't make her bad - it's just she needed to be there for me when I wasn't as good at things, like softball. She only really enjoyed watching me do things where I succeeded.

Yes my mom does the quiet sulky voice when I try to leave early or do things according to what I want. She tells me that she walks on eggshells around me, which of course makes me feel terrible. My brother is the smart one - he moved 3 hours away and it has done wonders for his self esteem and happiness. Terrible to say but it's true.

I kept thinking with age, Lizzy, that it would get better, but I'm almost 37 years old and the dynamic has never changed. The thing that truly makes me sad, is that in fighting this battle, I have damaged my relationship with my dad, because he is close to her and although he knows her faults, frequently gets sucked into thinking I am treating her badly. I guess I have parents that ultimately love me and I should be happy with that. There are those who are not so fortunate.

As for the possessions - I haven't thought that far. Fortunately my mom was a young mom (she was 19) so I hopefully have a long time before I have to cross the bridge of dealing with her belongings.
Nicky

We are all familiar with the: you can pick your friends but not your family...... Too true!
I don't mean to laugh Nicky, not at all. But you have to know that it is almost comical the way some people behave, to that point where all you can do is laugh about it! "oh mom, there you go again being that off lady we all love so much. You know, when you get Biotchy and not nice to someone or you try so hard to make me feel guilty about something, I can't help but laugh. It'll take a lot more to make me feel any guilt!"
Maybe this is all you can do, who knows. One other thing, it occurred to me that when you saying how your father's relationship is with your mother, most likely he really loves her and maybe she used to be a different person to him. You know kind of like, it's okay for me to mad at her, I'm her husband, but not you!

Who knows why she is like she is. I feel like this story is one we should give to Ann Landers, her girls would know!
Keep smiling Nicky and laugh - at her at yourself at life.
And at me.

It took me until 5 years ago to begin to distance myself from my parents. Hubby and I watched my Mum 'winding' up my Dad, the man she complained about to anyone who would listen that he controlled her: yes he had terrible rages when he would throw possessions around but in retrospect, it was because she drove him to 'crack'. Having moved far away we could be objective. She even tried to draw us in but I told her - in front of my Dad - that "any problems you 2 have are not going to become ours" ........ I could write a book, it would beat any 'soap' you ever saw! ;-).

Dad died 16 months ago: she's now 'at it' with another man, a man chosen who is exactly like my father: so she has someone to care about once more but also someone to moan about constantly. Not only did my Dad die - with whom I never built up a relationship - but I've lost my Mum as well. Lost her to a man who 'needs' her - like I don't? Of course I don't in Mum's eyes: I have a 'wonderful' Husband ............ well he's very good to me but: ;-) : who looks after me. Yep, I would like some girly time withy my mum .....