Hi there,

Feeling a bit philosophical tonight. Now there's a change, not.

I've been writing on D forums for nearly a decade now, initially as someone desperate to know and get help and still need that but it's rare anyone offers me any such help as I prefer to try and respond to others. When and if someone says it helped or even just replies I get as much of a lift as I do from most other things.

What I have noticed over those years though is that most people don't really want advice or help at all. They just want contact and usually respond to what sounds like an easy way out or to hugs etc. No problem with that, it's just as good as anything.

But the amount of information given to people, including myself in the early days, usually went over my head as it does for others today.

No one wnats to hear D may last for years. No one wants to hear it's hard work recovering. No one wants to know that they can't just fix it with sheer willpower.

I guess this is why those around the world who cheat and defraud others prosper.We want a quick, easy answer. Cure your depression for $19.99. Guaranteed! Where do I sign???

So what am I trying to say? I think I'm finding it frustrating to be able to respond to someone who gives good information and see them continue to struggle and spend time in this hole we are in. I want all to be able to get out, as quickly as possible and yet there seems no avodiing the same routine for all of us.

We know we aren't ill. We know we can fix it. We know these other people just don't understand. My doc doesn't know whay he's talking about, I do. And so on. We just don't take advice. Now and again someone does and it doesn't matter who gives them the key to the next door, it's what I like seeing. Even if it's temporary. I think that's why I still come to such forums. To see some escape.

I care not who gives that key, I just need to see it sometimes.

Perhaps when you do ask something on a forum like this you might just read the answers and find something there for you. I did, not always but just thanking people was important when I needed advice. Still do of course.

Just rambling really. The human mind is such a stubborn machine. Refuses to accept new info unless the eyes are open and ready to receive.

Best

Friendly

I agree with you on many things you've noted. People do use DF (or other forums) as a means for contact toreduce their isolation. (I do as I'm geographically isolated.) People do respond to words of kindness and support. They do tend to ignore suggestions on how to help themselves because their depression "blinds" them and takes away motivation. Depression can last for years, especially if untreated. Without the proper coping mechanisms or skills, depression is hard to overcome by oneself. Hard self-work is necessary for recovery. We all look for a quick fix (I do) and can fall into misleading traps set by others seeking monetary gains (prey on the "helpless".) We often can't see or admit to ourself that we have an illness and seek treatment (very difficult step.) The general population (usually) do not understand depression and what it does to those who have it. Fortunately, members of DF do understand and we try to help each other. Unfortunately, we do help others but we don't use our "words of wisdom" to help ourself. My observations and the mind traps I've fallen into on many depressive occasions.
Sheepwoman

Perfect.......I couldn't have said it better!!!!!

Well said, Sheepwoman. How easy it would be if we could all take our own advice!

Friendlyone, a lot of what you say is true, but the way I see it, depression is a disease that defies rational thought. In many cases, it is not that one wants to stay depressed, it is that one cannot see how to get out of the depressive cycle. And it is by no means easy. You are right, there is no quick fix and it is by no means an easy road but we are all here to support each other along the way.

Anyway that's my two cents

This post has been edited by last_resort: Jul 26 2008, 07:54 PM

Hi there all,

Thanks for your words.

And I have to tell you a little story.

The first time I saw a pdoc I was so scared and off the planet I demanded it (D, which I knew zip about) be fixed, and NOW. He laughed at me and I stormed out muttering damned doctors, what's the point if they can't fix what's wrong? And worse. I was so angry. I was convinced that guy was a complete idiot and I just had to find a better one. Well I did but same result of course. Minus the laughter.

I guess that's why I find it so frustrating today. Because I was so ignorant myself and I just want to try and shorten anyone's time in the D land. Truly it's so hard seing what will do that and not being able to find the right words to allow someone to do that.

I don't mean cures. I mean actually deciding to see a doc instead of spending years pondering and denying. I mean being able to accept what we really do know, that we have depression.

And of course being able to do it for oneself is impossible as you poiint out. It took me nearly 40 years to truly know and accept what was wrong. Yes I thought it was normal and yes it was low grade for years and so on. But I knew everything didn't I?

I knew I just had to persist and I'd be fine. So I turned to drinking and that fixed it for me, for years it did. A vicious cycle of drinking until I couldn't stand up, 3 days of recovering and then do it again. I didn't have time to be depressed. I worked all through that somehow and did well. Looking back I have no idea how.

I guess having made every possible mistake myself I just enjoy so much seeing some actually listen to people like Sheepwoman who gives great advice. And even more when they report back later and say "It helped"!.

Of course it is the nature of the beast. If only there were 6 monthly check ups like other, physical diseases. An assesment by experienced docs to report to people of the potential if shown or the fact if shown.

Why must we all go through the hell of waiting and denying when we have the expertise to use preventetive measures?

It's much more cost effective for governments for a start and the absolute misery it would save is just so appealing isn't it?

As I said, just philosophising really as it ain't going to change. Just wish I had a magic wand. For you all and me too.

Best and appreciate your kind words.

Friendly

As someone who's been suffering from depression and anxiety (I'm diagnosed schizoaffective) since childhood, I know only to well that it can last for years. For a lifetime, even. This is why finding ways to cope with our illnesses is so important. Forums such as DF are ready and waiting for people who are reaching out. Should we be driving home the fact that there's no quick snake oil cure? Should the people who search these sites be more willing to do the work required of them in order to recover? Yes. And yes again. Unfortunately, sometimes the only thing we can do is listen. Maybe listening is more important than doling out solutions. After all, recovery is a very personal experience.

Let's hear a biiig YEAH!!! for all of us at DF who listen and care!

for one and all.

-Bean

I think when things get SO bad, and you realise only YOU can make YOU better, that's when the improvements begin. A lot of my problems were feeling anxious about finding a quick fix. Only now do I truly know that there isn't one.

I spent so long in A&E, doctors waiting rooms, arguing with doctors, falling asleep feeling I would be dead by tomorrow. But now things have changed and I am back in the living world and one very, very tough person mentally. I have my downs, but I am a reformed character now. I know that life for me is going to be tough, but I now know that being happy is THE most important thing to me. I even cut my CBT short because I now know that I have the tools to make me better.

So that is my story on wanting help. I went so far to understand that I'm in the driving seat in my life, and now I know how to work the controls. It took a lot of accidents and emergencies to get there.

This post has been edited by kirkwuk: Jul 27 2008, 02:50 PM

Hi Bean,

I feel you may misunderstand my ponderings somewhat.

There is nothing better than just being there and that's why these forums are such a boon to all of us. But for the internet we'd all be sitting at home hiding believing we are the ONLY ONE as we do feel.

So just saying hi to someone is great value. As are Hugs and any form of acceptance we can muster.

There is no all encompassing way to respond to an individual and their situations. Usually gently, gently is by far the best as we are all so fragile a harsh word could turn the situation from bad to worse and that is to be avoided at all costs as I see it.

However there are certainly times where you can see someone needs to know some facts and presenting them in an acceptable manner is an acquired skill.

If you see bad advice or promises of quick fixes then I feel obliged to counter such.

I do not see a need to say first thing to anybody that there is no hope as there is, always. To say such would be insanity itself.

The road to recovery as you know as well as I is not a straight one. You improve, feel OK, enjoy your life for a time, could be years and then get hit by a negative event that drops you through the floor.

So you do it again, and again, and again. As many times as it takes as once you've been through the first horrors you at least have the proof that you can and have stood up before. It always feels like you can't do it anymore but the truth is we all can. And forums such as this are a very big part of achieving that.

I so pity all those people who still don't have net access and don't meet and talk with others who can ease the pressure simply by giving a reply, of any sort.

Just as an aside I mention the ads on this site. All advertising those quick fixes mentioned. Google ads I think but it is interesting that they choose what I see as totally fraudulent claims to advertise to people like us.

Don't they understand most do not actually see them here anyway? If they did they would be led to disappointment.

It is necessary to fund sites such as this with advertising but I simply fail to understand why Google doesn't present ads for things we actually use daily, as all humans do. It's not unique to this site by the way. Every D forum site uses the same , at best, misleading ads.

So snake oil is advertised here and I feel for anyone who gets sucked in by those ads. They are sick to promise something medical science can't promise.

Best

Friendly.

Hi friendlyone - I agree a lot with you. I've snipped your post (sorry), to try and pull out the concept I want to comment on: - I get immensely frustrated when people won't take the advice they've been given. I say that despite the fact that I don't always take advice either. I think we're not ready to hear something until we're ready. We all seem to have to go through the process, we can't just use, what others have learned, to get there faster. We need to be at the stage where we are ready to listen and hear the advice.

And, as well, we are quite attached to our depressions and other problems. As much as we scream No, No, there is part of us that grows comfortable with it, and finds it scary to let go of it.

I've found myself in situations here, where I am in a position to offer some advice, which I do, but then it is not taken and sometimes not even acknowledged. I get frustrated. Then I have to remember that I too, have asked for "help" on forums and been unable to understand the advice, or apply it. Maybe we have to do a certain amount of struggling in the hole, to get to where we really will do anything to get out, including acknowledging some unpleasant things about ourselves. At least that's been true of me.

And yes, sometimes we will just read the answers, or read other threads and SEE/HEAR the suggestions there, and follow them. Hopefully.

Hope I understood what you were trying to say!

Hi Friendlyone & All,

I hadn't been to any other self-help forums on the 'net before. When I discovered this one, it was, and is, a gentle, comforting, supportive, accepting place to be where I won't be judged and not alone in this illness which can be isolating. I guess I was not searching for advice from anyone. But any kind, encouraging words are helpful, and I enjoy giving & receiving that. I guess I don't expect any one to take any advice I offer. I hope that someting I say will encourage or uplift some one to keep going and feel supported. Sometimes some one will say words that make me look at my thoughts, feelings, and circumstances in a different way, that I may not have realized before.

I think the 'net is a wonderful outlet for people who are isolated. I know of a couple of people who are homebound due to illness on another site which gives them company.

Friendlyone, I like your avatar, by the way. I did a double take when I saw it!

I agree that this forum has been the most helpful and supportive of all. That is why, as well as others here do, continue to donate to keep it running at the standard it is today.

This post has been edited by kirkwuk: Jul 28 2008, 12:27 PM

i read this post with interest im new to depression forums but what i have realised straight away iv given advice out and its basic sound advice i try to be careful, iv realised i dont take my own advice, but i have realised i have changed somewhat because i am reaching out its almost like the advice i give im starting to feed back into my self and change a little.

Iv had depression now for about maybe 6-8 years mild to moderate now i dident take it seriously until recently always feeling i can just knock it off when i want to, its a bit more tricky that that someone said you cannot use willpower alone, i agree.

Also im a engineer and have to solve problems every day sometimes with lack of information and training on a specific product, iv found by experience that i start by identifing the problem first? so the first step is lets fully identify what the problem is? so next step... and so on.

Now ok the human mind is not a machine but its not a bad place to start? theres no doubt we suffer from depression because we can identify with each others symptoms, so what is depression? is it not the problem that we dont really know what depression is? from what iv read it just seems vaig? the treatment types are not united either, G.P'S mostly know next to nothing, my G.P confessed that i probably know more about depression than him after telling him iv started to study and read books on the subject and hes not alone.

i cant explain this fully but maybe Depression shadows or there are no clear boundrys between depression and life itself.ie. a part of your body needs treatment like your hand and it gets treated, depression? the organ involved? which one? the mind? the body? the self? and the self then come into the realm of spirituality, iv even heard it described as spiritual bankruptsy? i hope im explaining myself so to as convey what iv having a shot at here how do you seperate depression from life itself? its intertwined together especially with theorys of depression being caused by early life experiences.

The way out of the prison, which road leads to the promised land?

Simon

Hi SimonB,

You have a similar work background although I wasn't an engineer. My speciality was analysing problems and coming up with solutions simply by talking to those who used something and those that made something. They knew what they wanted, I didn't. So I just interpreted really. And that's basically what I try to do here I think.

You are spot on actually. Medical science really still knows very little about the human brain and mental disorders. What they do is what all scientists do. They take historical records and examine them for clues. Which leads to classification groups, or a diagnosis process but all that does is give them something to call what we have. And that isn't anywhere near accurate as yet. But it's the best they can do and it is improving all the time so we battle on. As others say often it's sure better than if we lived 50 years ago! I don't like closets or being locked up.

I read your summary as asking is it all interwoven? The body and the mind? I have no doubt it is mate but we have specialists that deal with each part of the body and the same for the mind. Some specialise in a particular mental disorder too.

This is why I would only see a psychiatrist you see. They are trained firstly as a basic doctor so they know the connections as well as they can as well as the known brain data.

I suspect you should be working on a team somewhere trying to figure this stuff out as you ask and pinpoint excellent issues.

To Kirk, This and an Aussie site to me are about equal. Both safe, no trolls or nasties charging around and people who give their time for nothing to help. What else could we ask for mate?

To WhiteLily, Any reply is really a great reply in a safe environment. Just a hello is often more than a newbie expects and gets them into the community quickly. I will say that every newbie (don't like that word but it's used) almost to a person uses the word "help" and that is why they initially come. Looking for answers of help from others. Some expect a cure, some expect nothing but they all come for help of one kind or another.

Re the Avatar. From memory I just Googled Free animated avatars and there were plenty. This one and a long necked giraffe were the ones to catch my eye! This particular one reminds me of myself too you see. First name Ross, meaning horse. And two legs only representing my own depression handicap. Half a life you see! Avatars do mean a lot to people often.

Moonlight, I certainly am attached to my depression. I really don't know what I'd be like without it you see. I was 10 last time I didn't have it and I can't remember much back then. So it is a part of me I'd find difficult to live without in some ways. In others I hate it so much I can't express it. I call it my best EX friend because it knows me inside out and knows where to hurt. But I accepted it which made a difference.

Yeah, I find it hard to take advice myself, really do. Even today. I follow docs treatments and suggestions to the T as that is treatment, not advice. But if he says something like "Try thinking of others" on a day when I'm just at the bottom I can't do it and get angry for the suggestion.

I used to find it frustrating when advice was ignored but in time I realised I did the same and to expect others to do so was arrogant. And stupid of me. At work it was that way. Give advice on an issue and it had to be followed so I guess I carried that through. Which would be great if I knew everything or at least something but I don't. It's just trying to read what is written and respond and that's it. No point getting upset anymore for me. Just somedays, as in when I wrote this thread, I wonder if there is any point at all. People just seem to have to make their own mistakes and hearing from others is pointless often.

Then again if 2 or 3 people a week or so get something from our ramblings I feel good these days. Really do.

I compare this though to education. People go to school, college, university etc to learn and they absorb what they are told don't they? So why is this issue different?

Ahhh, as a parent I can't tell you how many times our children have been told by us this works or that doesn't. Ignored but 6 months later they rush home and tell us friend X told them the same things and it solved their problem. SCREAM!!!!!

No, whatever you made of my wonderings are correct. It was meant to provoke thought rather than provide answers. Have people think about "Why do I ask for help" if I don't listen. That was my aim.

Very best

Friendly.

Hey yes souns like you are some kind of systems analysis, when i left school i was training as a computer programmer with some systems analysis involved after this i always feel iv adopted a kind of mental logic from it all, also i went into electrical then electronics in fact i went nuts not long after!

Anyway maybe going off topic now so i hope im not hijaking a interesting thread as you saying psychiatrist a book sprung to mind
Healing Without Freud or Prozac:David Servan-Schreiber, iv read lots of books in fact maybe tomany now! but something he said in this book always stick in my mind he talked about, emotional minds and the mind of the heart, basically if i can remember the theory goes that scientists are reasearching an emotional system thats linked between the mind and the heart, and in depression is can be offline so its more of you could say a physical explanation or more towards the mind/body connection.for me i love the theory because it seems to fit, as i feel a type of knumbness and from time to time just for a moment or two espeically with music that i have not heard for years it takes me back not just in memory but before my depression and seems to snap back in, so just for that moment i felt what i used to feel alive and its like my heart breaths.

simon